Wilkins’s Rationale

I would like to blog just a bit about the rationale that Wilkins has issued in leaving the PCA.

We (AAPC) have tried to seek peace and reconciliation with our brethren in the PCA. Though we have not been successful in every case, we have made sincere and good faith efforts to do so. We have also sought to preserve our relationships with our brothers and though we have not always been successful here either, we continue to stand ready to receive them and welcome them back into our fellowship at any time.

Maybe I’m reading too much into this, but this paragraph sounds a bit presumptuous. Why would AAPC be the governing body that would receive the PCA back into their fellowship, rather than vice versa? Is this an attempt to label the critics as schismatic?

Further, we (AAPC and I) have sought to be submissive to Presbytery throughout the entire time. More than once I have expressed my willingness to submit to their judgment regarding the controversy over my views. I have made it clear throughout that, if Presbytery judged my views to be out of accord with the Confessional Standards of the PCA, I would submit to that judgment and withdraw if I believed I could not in good conscience agree with it. I have been willing to submit to the directives of Presbytery in each of the investigations that were carried out and sought to be completely honest regarding my views in response to Presbytery’s inquiries.

I don’t actually doubt the truth of most of what is said here, except that it is irrelevant, is it not? Presbytery never judged AAPC or Wilkins to be out of accord, because they never brought him to trial. Even the plea of guilty that the Presbytery made to the second charge is not identical to declaring Wilkins to be out of accord. The plea of guilty means that the Presbytery admitted that they should have put Wilkins on trial. As to his being completely honest, I am troubled. I just finished listening to a seven or eight cd lecture series that Wilkins did on covenant theology. It was vastly different from the more qualified statements he made while under fire. In the cd series, for instance, he said that the grace given to the elect and the non-elect within the covenant is the same. Not only that, but he repeated it, and held to it even after being questioned on this point. Obviously, someone is going to be more careful in a Presbytery grilling. But should not one be just as careful in front of the church (which is really in front of God)? What we say in front of Presbytery ought to be exactly the same thing we are preaching in our churches. I don’t doubt that Wilkins believes that he has been honest. But his teaching in front of the church is not the same as the answers he gave to Presbytery.

We strongly disagreed with the indictment brought against our Presbytery by the Standing Judicial Commission charging the Presbytery with gross neglect. I thought the charges were unwarranted and without basis in fact and was very sorry that Presbytery was willing to admit guilt to either of them. The Presbytery has sought to be conscientious and faithful in dealing with this matter, and, by and large, the spirit with which they sought to fulfill their duty was remarkable given the pressures that were put upon them from outside.

Naturally, Wilkins would think that the charges were unwarranted and without basis in fact. Naturally, Wilkins would be sorry that Presbytery was willing to admit guilt in such a matter. Let us be clear, however, that this is an opinion (it is not fact) which the SJC has judged to be in error. I wonder what Wilkins means by the pressures from outside. I suspect he means the pressures to conform to a preconceived idea of Wilkins’s guilt in regard to his teaching. Undoubtedly, there was pressure from outside…to conform to the BCO and the standards of the church! That is precisely the nature of charge 1 and charge 2.

The next several paragraphs discuss the decision-making process through which the session and congregation went in voting to leave the PCA. I do not really have a comment on that except to say this: what did the session think when it was the Presbytery on trial, not Wilkins? Did they think Wilkins should have gone on trial? If so, then why did they change their mind? I’ve heard a lot of clamor before now about the fact that it was Presbytery, not Wilkins, that was on trial. As soon as it looks as though Wilkins will be put on trial, he leaves. In any case, he can no longer bear the name of “Machen,” since Machen faced his trial. That being said, I still do not think that AAPC’s leaving was a wrong decision, ultimately. I just wonder why they didn’t do this far earlier, avoiding all the divisiveness that has resulted.

Presbytery’s decision not to conduct a trial of me was influenced by the stated unwillingness of some to submit to the outcome of a presbytery trial if that trial resulted in a decision in my favor. Some of the members of the Presbytery informed us that they had already decided to file a complaint against the decision of the Presbytery to the SJC if a trial by the Presbytery exonerated me — regardless of what the trial evidence showed. They also acknowledged that the SJC would reverse any decision which exonerated me. This seemed to influence Presbytery’s decision not to hold the trial itself, but rather to refer the matter directly to the SJC for final disposition. Furthermore, I believe Presbytery feared — based on threats set forth in the indictment of the presbytery — that if it did try me and, upon receiving and reviewing the evidence adduced by my accusers and by myself in my defense, exonerate me, the Presbytery would be cut off from the PCA.

This paragraph assumes that Presbytery is the last court of appeal. The language of “submit to the outcome of a presbytery trial” is pejorative. Let’s put it this way: someone in the LAP was teaching Arminianism, and this same situation resulted, and the Calvinist in the Presbytery had already made up his mind that so-and-so had actually taught Arminianism (keep in mind, now, that the entire Presbytery has had many, many hours of listening to Wilkins), but he knew that the Presbytery would probably acquit so-and-so, because the Presbytery wasn’t strong on Calvinism. What should he do? Should he not resolve to appeal? It is naive in the extreme to suppose that the members of the Presbytery have not made up their mind by now, trial or no trial. By the way, Presbytery would not need to fear the result of a trial. Let’s say the Presbytery did exonerate him after a trial, and someone appealed. Such cases happen all the time within Presbyteries. The SJC might have reversed the decision, but they would not cut off a Presbytery for coming to the wrong decision in this matter. The problem was that the Presbytery consistently refused to try him at all. They examined him, but that is not the same thing.

With that avenue of resolution foreclosed, I was left with the prospect of a trial before the SJC. This meant that I would have had to go before a group of men who had not only twice previously faulted Presbytery for failing to find a strong presumption of guilt that my views were out of accord with our confessional standards but had indicted the Presbytery on the basis that this fault was so clearly contrary to our constitution that it constituted a strong presumption of guilt that the Presbytery had committed grossly unconstitutional proceedings in “a fundamental neglect of the Biblical responsibilities of the eldership.”

These remarkable and unprecedented developments, coupled with the extraordinary judgment of my views by the PCA Study Committee, which had judged me to be out of accord with our confessional standards without asking for any clarification or for a response on my part (and without any constitutional authority for effectively trying me in this manner) led me to believe that the pressure to convict me would overwhelm the concern for a just, accurate judgment based on the evidence adduced at trial.

I have no comment on the first paragraph of this quotation. I only included it because it was a necessary context for the second paragraph. The second paragraph is the same old gripe: “You never contacted me to find out if this was what I teach!” We should ask Calvin if we can say anything positive about his theology. After all, we cannot call him up from the dead (Saul, Samuel, and the witch of Endor notwithstanding). Can we understand Calvin from his writings or not? Someone might say that we have far more of Calvin’s teachings. Granted. But why then does Wilkins publish any of his writings? The way scholarship works is on the fundamental basis of someone’s writings. Such writings are supposed to be clear presentations of the author’s views. Even today, scholarship is most often done without contacting the scholars whose views are being critiqued. This is not viewed as shoddy scholarship simply because this is done and because the authors were not contaced. Now, this is a separate question from whether the writings were understood correctly. I do understand this, and so did the study committee.

Secondly, the claim about effectively trying Wilkins by study committee is, quite frankly, ludicrous. The constitutional authority comes from the BCO, where the Presbytery (and, by the same token, the GA) has the power to condemn erroneous opinion. This power is explicitly given to the Presbytery, and mutatis mutandis, the General Assembly. Furthermore, a study committee report is not a trial, Sproul’s comments on the floor of GA notwithstanding (his words functioned as metaphor). If anything, the study committee put some particular theological views on trial. It did not put anyone on trial. So, there is nothing in that paragraph that is true.

That is all for now, except that the tone of this whole declaration by Wilkins does not seem to be in accordance with the claim that he leaves without bitterness or self-pity (last paragraph). Instead, it has the feel of a parting last shot. I know exactly how he feels. I did the same thing when I was kicked off the Wrightsaid group. I wrote a bitter letter to the moderators of that group saying that I hoped they enjoyed their hegemony. This has the same feel.  

70 Comments

  1. February 1, 2008 at 7:38 pm

    […] Rationale, at GB At GreenBaggins Wilkinss Rationale Green Baggins __________________ Chris Coldwell Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member Naphtali Press: […]

  2. Ron Henzel said,

    February 1, 2008 at 10:07 pm

    Lane,

    You wrote:

    That being said, I still do not think that AAPC’s leaving was a wrong decision, ultimately. I just wonder why they didn’t do this far earlier, avoiding all the divisiveness that has resulted.

    My take is that criteria for the timing of their decision to leave was based purely on internal considerations at AAPC. Make no mistake about it: the primary intended audience of Wilkins’s letter is his own congregation.

  3. HaigLaw said,

    February 1, 2008 at 10:09 pm

    I had the sense in attending the Jan. 19 LaP meeting that the AAPC commissioners wanted some kind of vote of confidence from the presbytery. It was implied that they would continue to fight for the FV within the PCA if the presbytery was still with them. In fact, Pastor Wilkins’ associate pastor made a motion to find FV out of accord with the PCA’s constitutional standards, hoping for a negative vote. As I blogged at the time at my xanga.com/haiglaw blog, there was much discussion about what a vote for or against this resolution would mean. E.g., “a no vote means we favor FV.” “A yes vote means we oppose FV.” It was confusing, because it was couched in the negative. I argued that I was voting no, not because I favored FV but because I thought the resolution was out of order, since it would judge the merits of FV without a trial, and I was in favor of LaP conducting a trial. The resolution was resoundingly voted down. But I don’t think the AAPC men were left feeling this was the vote of confidence they wanted. Especially with the guilty vote on count 2 — that we admitted we were wrong in failing to find a strong presumption of guilt that the FV views were out of accord with the Constitution of the PCA. There was the sense that a couple of key votes had shifted and that the sympathies for FV had a bare majority at best — certainly not enough to be comfortable comrades in arms in taking on the GA. That’s my sense, as a newcomer to all this.

  4. jared said,

    February 2, 2008 at 12:15 am

    Lane,

    You say,

    Maybe I’m reading too much into this, but this paragraph sounds a bit presumptuous. Why would AAPC be the governing body that would receive the PCA back into their fellowship, rather than vice versa? Is this an attempt to label the critics as schismatic?

    Yes, far too much.It seems to me that Wilkins and Co. are wanting reconcilitation with their brothers in the PCA (you know, those whom wrongly accuse them of teaching a false gospel?), not with the PCA (who, even given the Study Report, does not accuse them of teaching a false gospel). Some critics have been, and still very much are, schismatic.

    You say,

    As to his being completely honest, I am troubled. I just finished listening to a seven or eight cd lecture series that Wilkins did on covenant theology. It was vastly different from the more qualified statements he made while under fire.

    Was the cd lecture series done before or after the Presbytery examinations? If it was given/recorded before these examinations it is not entirely unimaginable that Wilkins has worked out his theology in greater detail within the context of FV. If it was given/recorded after the examinations then you have a valid concern here; otherwise you’re just reaching for reasons.

    You say,

    The way scholarship works is on the fundamental basis of someone’s writings. Such writings are supposed to be clear presentations of the author’s views. Even today, scholarship is most often done without contacting the scholars whose views are being critiqued. This is not viewed as shoddy scholarship simply because this is done and because the authors were not contaced. Now, this is a separate question from whether the writings were understood correctly. I do understand this, and so did the study committee.

    Along the same lines as above, how is it not possible for Wilkins to have changed and modified his views so that they are now different (even if not significantly) from what has been previously published? The Federal Vision was published in 2004 and Wilkins’ response to his Presbytery’s questions was given two years later in 2006. Did the Study Committee use any of those writings in formulating their assessment of FV? As far as I can tell his response to his own Presbytery was cited only once, and in a footnote that is nothing short of irrational (footnote 62). What you are telling us here is that if Calvin were alive today and were a preacher in the PCA and GA put together a committee of people to study his theology (people who already largely disagree with his theology, no less) because of certain controversial rumblings; that you wouldn’t go out of your way, as a committee, to actually talk to him? This would make more sense if it really weren’t feasible to get Calvin on the phone or sitting down at a coffee table. So, the question is would you want to learn from Calvin in person or from his books, given the option? If this is considered good or standard scholarship practive (much less good or standard study committee practice), it’s a wonder that anyone learns anything at all.

    You say,

    Furthermore, a study committee report is not a trial, Sproul’s comments on the floor of GA notwithstanding (his words functioned as metaphor). If anything, the study committee put some particular theological views on trial. It did not put anyone on trial. So, there is nothing in that paragraph that is true.

    You’re absolutely right that a study committee report is not a trial. So when it was published and after it was accepted then why so many people claiming the report as further justification that FVers are heretics and false brothers? These are claims that you and your fellow authors, and many of your fellow commentors, ratify on a daily basis. Sure some are carefully qualified so that FVers aren’t evil and false brothers, but this is not the case with the most vocal of your critical commentors and even with some of your fellow authors. The PCA has published and accepted a study report that makes certain declarations and recommendations concerning a few points of theology as interpreted by the WCF. It condemned no one and passed no judgment (leaving that up to the local authorities), yet here we are. Let’s throw the report in AAPC’s (and every other FVer’s) face and tell them they need to get the heck out of Dodge because now FV has been officially condmned. Sproul’s words apparently (and clearly) functioned as an interpretive paradigm, not as a metaphor (which, if that was the intent, they were ill-suited to the task). I think there may be a little more than “nothing” that is true in that last paragraph.

    Tell me something, what’s the point of this? What’s the point of kicking Wilkins and Co. while they are on their way out? Isn’t that what the critics in the PCA have been asking for and suggesting all along? And now that it’s finally happening we have to be critical of him here as well? I can understand why a wounded dog would want to take a last nip (not even a bite) at those who did the wounding (and I don’t think Wilson has even really done this much), but to kick the dog one more time as he’s leaving is just plain unnecessary.

  5. GLW Johnson said,

    February 2, 2008 at 4:42 am

    A better take on this than the one offered by Jared- who appears to be chronologically challenged- is that of Sean G. and his blog ‘God’s Hammer, which Lane has linked in his blogroll.

  6. William Hill said,

    February 2, 2008 at 7:51 am

    Or not…

  7. GLW Johnson said,

    February 2, 2008 at 8:09 am

    Your right Bill, a better place to start is Mike T’s http://federal-vision.blogspot.com/

  8. David Gray said,

    February 2, 2008 at 8:28 am

    >Your right Bill, a better place to start is Mike T’s

    If you lack scuples…

  9. David Gray said,

    February 2, 2008 at 8:29 am

    Make that scruples

  10. Ken Christian said,

    February 2, 2008 at 8:29 am

    Lane – I understand that you felt the need to dispute some of the claims found in Wilkins’ rationale. As a matter of fact, I expected that you would. Though I may disagree with your interpretation of the way things have gone down, you are certainly right to express your interpretation of the issues Wilkins cites.

    But the last paragraph, Lane…come on! Who cares what “feel” Wilkins’ comments had to you? How is it at all beneficial to the kingdom of God or the PCA to speculate about Wilkins’ potential bitterness. This is baseless congecture at best and gossip at worse. How can I not conclude that this is just more ridiculous example of disagreeing ministers accusing one another sinful motives? As I’ve told you privately, it is this kind of crap that is the real embarassment to our denomination.

  11. Ken Christian said,

    February 2, 2008 at 8:31 am

    two typos in #10: Second sentance of paragraph 2 should end with a question mark. Also, in line 6 of paragraph 2, there should be a “one” between “just” and “more”. Sorry.

  12. Ron Henzel said,

    February 2, 2008 at 8:47 am

    Ken,

    You wrote:

    But the last paragraph, Lane…come on! Who cares what “feel” Wilkins’ comments had to you? How is it at all beneficial to the kingdom of God or the PCA to speculate about Wilkins’ potential bitterness. This is baseless congecture at best and gossip at worse. How can I not conclude that this is just more ridiculous example of disagreeing ministers accusing one another sinful motives? As I’ve told you privately, it is this kind of crap that is the real embarassment to our denomination.

    Lane was responding to contradiction between Wilkins’s claim that “We do not leave with any bitterness or self-pity” and his allegation that “the pressure to convict me would overwhelm the concern for a just, accurate judgment based on the evidence adduced at trial.” First he says he has no ax to grind, and then he proceeds to whip it out and grind it on the heads of those who tried to hold him accountable—those who, he insinuates, were not interested in justice, accuracy, or evidence. I suppose a more charitable reading might be…hmmm…I can’t really think of one right now.

  13. William Hill said,

    February 2, 2008 at 9:10 am

    Mike T’s blog?? LOL! If you lack common sense and can stand the vitrolic nature and his over the top statements about other people. Sure. Start there.

  14. William Hill said,

    February 2, 2008 at 9:11 am

    “As I’ve told you privately, it is this kind of crap that is the real embarassment to our denomination.”

    This whole load of “crap” (the FV issue and the way it was handled from day one) is an embarassment for the PCA.

  15. GLW Johnson said,

    February 2, 2008 at 9:27 am

    Thanks Dave and Bill but I personally find Mike T’s blog very a breath of fresh air, and luv him or hate him you got to admit he got fare. The trouble with you Wilsonites is that you love when ol’Doug pulls out his rhetorical guns and starts blasting away at anything that moves-but you don’t like it when someone returns fire.

  16. William Hill said,

    February 2, 2008 at 9:34 am

    Gary,

    Assumption: You think I am a Wilsonite (whatever the heck that means). I’m not. I do have a brain and try to use it often in examining everything everyone says. Thanks, but that shoe doesn’t fit.

    The only thing I will admit about Mark T’s blog is about it’s downright hateful nature and lack of charity. Even if I were to agree with the things he writes about I would not agree with the style. All this I have said before and, as is par for the course, it really doesn’t matter to those who are deceived by their actions. So be it. I am patient and God is watching…

  17. William Hill said,

    February 2, 2008 at 9:36 am

    Oh, and you have every right to feel as though certain blogs are a “breath of fresh air”. I, in turn, have every right to think the air is stinkin’ up the place.

  18. February 2, 2008 at 10:08 am

    This whole thread seems to be going no where at break neck speed.

  19. William Hill said,

    February 2, 2008 at 10:11 am

    Sure. However, and for the record, it was Gary who opened this door about Gerety’s blog and then Mark T’s blog. All I want people to understand is that there are far better blogs out there that have been dealing with this matter. Though I would not be considerd as one who stands with Lane on his overall views of the FV issue I have appreciated his tone when dealing with it. You see, it can be done in a way that both disagrees (vehemently at times) and also maintaions grace and charity.

  20. Jim Polk said,

    February 2, 2008 at 10:12 am

    This whole load of “crap” (the FV issue and the way it was handled from day one) is an embarassment for the PCA.

    William,

    I’ve asked this question before many times and to date no one has given me an answer. How exactly should this “whole load of crap” have been handled? How much more talk and how much more time should be entertained before the PCA acts. I’ve been an RE in the PCA for quite a few years now and if anything, the judicial process can be painfully slow. No one has been railroaded here and if the fact that 7 reformed denominations completely disagree with FV theology, there were no stacked committees either. What in your opinion should have been done that hasn’t been done already?

  21. Mark T. said,

    February 2, 2008 at 10:19 am

    Bringing this thread back to point, Wilkins’ statement was a shallow, self-serving, disingenuous, and transparent excuse that took no responsibility at all for his role in the controversy of the last five years. This line was particularly insulting:

    “I have been willing to submit to the directives of Presbytery in each of the investigations that were carried out and sought to be completely honest regarding my views in response to Presbytery’s inquiries.”

    But when Presbytery changed its position and pled guilty to the second specification and handed him to the SJC, Mr. Wilkins ran faster than Ben Johnson on steroids. In other words, he REFUSED TO SUBMIT when their judgment cut against him. As Pastor Lane noted, at least Machen faced his trial.

  22. greenbaggins said,

    February 2, 2008 at 10:24 am

    David, I agree. Ken, Ron has me pegged precisely.

    Jared, point 1. You are artificially limiting the scope of “our brothers in the PCA.” Nowhere in that paragraph does Wilkins limit the sense of that phrase merely to those brothers in the PCA who “wrongfully” accused him. Furthermore, even if your interpretation was correct, that still would not let you off the hook. If 95% of the PCA voted for the report, then 95% of the PCA “wrongfully” accused Wilkins.

    On your second paragraph, you seem to be assuming that a pastor may have almost none of his theology settled when he comes into the PCA, and that he has the freedom to rearrange his theology at will for the entire course of his ministry. It doesn’t work like that in a confessional church. This is the reason why your otherwise logical argument fails to convince. He was always supposed to be confessional.

    Your answer to the scholarship question undermines most of modern scholarship, which is usually not done face to face. The problem with phone conversations and informal publications such as emails is that they are not usually as carefully thought out as published writings that have been looked over by trusted colleagues. I am sure that just about all the essays in _Federal Vision_, for instance, were reviewed by several of the other authors before publication. The published writings are hence more reliable. Now, I myself am certainly contacting as many of the FV authors as I can for writing my Ph.D. thesis on the subject. However, I am depending on their writings for their views, and only using the contact for quick clarifications of small points. And the only real reason I am even doing that is the outcry that the FV’ers have made concerning this very point.

    On your second to last paragraph, you create a false dichotomy. On the one hand, the FV has not been condemned by a judicial court of the PCA. On the other hand, everyone is condemning the FV by their words. You basically assert that there is a mismatch between these two things. Let me say this: a study committee does not have to have the full weight of a judicial opinion in order to have *some* weight. Surely, the study committee report gives us the direction in which the PCA wants to go. That is surely a fair estimate of the weight of the document. Is it then totally unreasonable to conclude from that that those who do not like this direction would feel more comfortable elsewhere? You know, as I’ve thought about this, I am really and genuinely concerned for the blood pressures and heart conditions of the various FV advocates in the PCA. Wouldn’t it be better for their health not to have to worry constantly about being kicked out? Wouldn’t it be better simply to exist in a denomination that is more in line with the direction the FV’ers want to go? Is this totally and completely unreasonable?

    As to your last paragraph, I wasn’t going to say anything if Wilkins didn’t. But he has attacked the SJC, the study committee report, and anyone who has even whispered the word “heresy” in the PCA. Don’t expect the PCA not to defend itself.

  23. greenbaggins said,

    February 2, 2008 at 10:25 am

    William, thanks for your gracious words.

  24. Dave Sarafolean said,

    February 2, 2008 at 11:04 am

    Mark T. #21

    Yes, you are on the mark. I also choked on this comment from Wilkins about submitting to the directives of the presbytery. What is latent in that phrase is a violation of Wilkins’ ordination vows. From the PCA Book of Church order vows 3 & 4 we have these words:

    3. Do you approve of the form of government and discipline of
    the Presbyterian Church in America, in conformity with the
    general principles of Biblical polity?
    4. Do you promise subjection to your brethren in the Lord?

    Based on Wilkins’ statement he is pitting Session and Presbytery vs. General Assembly. You cannot “approve of the form of government and discipline of the PCA” and eschew its highest court. You cannot promise “subjection to your brethren” and only listen to one’s elders and/or presbytery.

    Is this not casuistry in its highest form?

  25. David Gilleran said,

    February 2, 2008 at 11:17 am

    Just a few observations: a football coach at the college I graduated from one said ” Hindsight is 50/50″ He meant of course 20/20. Just a few things in hindsight. 1) when the Session of AAPC came to the understanding about baptized children taking the Lord’s Supper, they should have left the PCA at that point. Even though the followed the BCO and admitted children after examination. 2) Shame on those in LAP who didn’t file charges against Pastor Wilkins if they believed he was in error six years ago. I do not buy this idea that they were afraid of being charged themselves if the charges were not proved in LAP. They always had a course of appeal to the SJC, where they would have found a more favorable appeal. 3) For some it seems that our Lord’s words about those who were under John the Baptist’s ministry apply to some. At first you wanted Wilkins and AAPC to leave to go to the CREC. Now that they have you complain no stay so you can have a trial. Brothers, see points 1 and 2. At this point at least with Pr. Wilkins and the PCA it is done and lets move on.

  26. its.reed said,

    February 2, 2008 at 11:20 am

    Ref. a whole lot:

    Brothers, as one who has gotten grief for referring to “dog doo” in a sermon, and therefore to whom the word prude does not apply, let me appeal that you weigh your words more carefully. In privatre conversations a among friends I can appreciat the value of certain (very carefully chosen) expletives.

    However, a public blog is not the place for the use of any expletives. There is no manner in which you yourselves, any of the editors, or the blog owner can remove the appearance of sinfulness in such a setting.

    Please, in the future, be a little wiser when expressing yourself intensely.

    Thanks!

  27. David Gray said,

    February 2, 2008 at 12:32 pm

    >Thanks Dave and Bill but I personally find Mike T’s blog very a breath of fresh air, and luv him or hate him you got to admit he got fare. The trouble with you Wilsonites is that you love when ol’Doug pulls out his rhetorical guns and starts blasting away at anything that moves-but you don’t like it when someone returns fire.

    Pastor Johnson,

    I know Wilson’s last name and even when he says something he shouldn’t he’s man enough to put his name against it. Same for you. Not for that other fellow…

  28. greenbaggins said,

    February 2, 2008 at 1:04 pm

    David, this is the reason why I have not linked to Mark T’s blog, even though I read every post he writes. However, what you need to come to grips with is the fact of anonymity, while problematic, is actually irrelevant to the truth value of what is being stated there. Whether Mark T is stating the truth has nothing to do with whether he is anonymous or not. So, to discount everything he says because he is cautious about having his name plastered all over the internet is illogical.

  29. Ken Christian said,

    February 2, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    Ref. 26: I really do think the public speculations concerning a minister’s motives should be considered way more dangerous and offensive than the using of particular words (that aren’t even considered expletives by most).

  30. David Gray said,

    February 2, 2008 at 1:17 pm

    >However, what you need to come to grips with is the fact of anonymity, while problematic, is actually irrelevant to the truth value of what is being stated there. Whether Mark T is stating the truth has nothing to do with whether he is anonymous or not.

    Pastor Keister.

    Oddly enough the notion you state in not a novelty to me but it assumes something. We don’t know whether Mark is telling the truth. What he displays of his character is one indicator of the likelihood of the veracity of the information he propagates. Now even if he proved to be an utter scoundrel it would not mean all statements he makes are false. But for those of us who were not present regarding things he discusses we must determine whether to believe him or not. His character, or lack thereof, and how he conducts himself is something to which we must give weight.

  31. GLW Johnson said,

    February 2, 2008 at 1:21 pm

    Dave
    Are you dense or what? Mark T true identity is known to DW and it would be embarressing to MT if everybody new they were related-there , see if you can figure out the rest, Sherlock.

  32. David Gray said,

    February 2, 2008 at 1:35 pm

    >Are you dense or what?

    Pastor Johnson,

    Thanks for the pastoral counsel.

  33. GLW Johnson said,

    February 2, 2008 at 1:55 pm

    DG
    You’re welcome . Oh, you’re lacking a sense of humor to boot.

  34. greenbaggins said,

    February 2, 2008 at 1:57 pm

    David, I am not assuming the truth of Mark T’s statements at all. All I was saying is that the question of his anonymity is a separate question entirely from the question of the truth-value (that is, true or false) of Mark’s statements. This is basic logic.

  35. Jeff Moss said,

    February 2, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    GLW Johnson,

    Why do you think that Doug Wilson knows Mark T.’s identity?

    As far as I can tell, the whole point of Mark T.’s anonymity is that nobody knows who he really is, and therefore no one can hold him accountable in any real way for anything he says.

  36. greenbaggins said,

    February 2, 2008 at 2:10 pm

    That’s not Mark T’s stated reason for being anonymous. He states that the reason he is anonymous is that if his identity were known, he would face reprisals. Now, that statement may be false. But at the very least, you have to consider that that statement might be true.

  37. GLW Johnson said,

    February 2, 2008 at 2:15 pm

    How many times have I said that the FV crowd , in addition to their theological novelites,are devoid of a sense of humor. Hey, wait a minute-does anyone see a connection here?

  38. greenbaggins said,

    February 2, 2008 at 2:19 pm

    I see the connection: people who are innovating are almost always paranoid. This divests them of their sense of humor.

  39. David Gray said,

    February 2, 2008 at 3:51 pm

    >I see the connection: people who are innovating are almost always paranoid. This divests them of their sense of humor.

    So how do you explain people who think they are being funny when they are not?

  40. David Gray said,

    February 2, 2008 at 3:52 pm

    >He states that the reason he is anonymous is that if his identity were known, he would face reprisals.

    Sounds like a confession of bad character on his part.

  41. greenbaggins said,

    February 2, 2008 at 3:58 pm

    David, are you sure you are judging with charity in both of these posts?

  42. David Gray said,

    February 2, 2008 at 4:17 pm

    >David, are you sure you are judging with charity in both of these posts?

    Pastor Keister,

    “Are you dense or what?”

    Perhaps you aren’t showing a sense of humour?

    Well on the second item I am serious. If you are going to throw all of this stuff around on people you should be willing to put your name to it. I’m sure I’m not doing myself any favors over the future when we move next year by using my name with people like yourself or Pastor Johnson. But I wouldn’t be much of a man if I wouldn’t put my name behind my opinions and assertions.

  43. Jeff Moss said,

    February 2, 2008 at 4:19 pm

    Lane (#36),

    I think we’re really saying the same thing. What other people would call “accountability,” Mark T. calls “reprisals.”

    Let me explain why I think so. Moscow, Idaho, has a history of websites such as Vision 20/20, Pooh’s Think, “Cultists in Hats,” etc., that for years have been providing cover for a small group of anonymous character assassins. Their vitriol has been directed not only against Doug Wilson and other CREC ministers, but also against R.C. Sproul Sr., Andrew Sandlin, Doug Phillips (for a while), and whoever else is the target du jour. Some of these anonymous critics have later been shown to be operating under multiple aliases.

    And what “reprisals” are they afraid of? Church discipline for documented and unrepented sins? Public statements of disapproval that name names? What other kinds of reprisals do they have any reason to expect?

  44. jared said,

    February 2, 2008 at 11:23 pm

    Lane, thanks for your time and thoughtful response(s).

    Ref. #22

    You say,

    Jared, point 1. You are artificially limiting the scope of “our brothers in the PCA.” Nowhere in that paragraph does Wilkins limit the sense of that phrase merely to those brothers in the PCA who “wrongfully” accused him. Furthermore, even if your interpretation was correct, that still would not let you off the hook. If 95% of the PCA voted for the report, then 95% of the PCA “wrongfully” accused Wilkins.

    I am no more artificially limiting the scope of “our brothers in the PCA” than you are equating “our brothers” with “the PCA”. I highly doubt that Wilkins’ intentions here were that the PCA, as a denomination, needs to seek reconciliation with/for him or AAPC. The “them” in the paragraph that you quote clearly refers to brothers and not a denomination. Any “presumption” here is wholly the result of the reader and not of the author.

    You say,

    On your second paragraph, you seem to be assuming that a pastor may have almost none of his theology settled when he comes into the PCA, and that he has the freedom to rearrange his theology at will for the entire course of his ministry. It doesn’t work like that in a confessional church. This is the reason why your otherwise logical argument fails to convince. He was always supposed to be confessional.

    No assumptions on my part about how much of his theology is/was settled when he was ordained. The concepts put forth in FV affect a great many areas of ones theology in a great many ways and it takes time to work those things out. Now the question can be raised about whether Wilkins should be preaching while working out his theology in these areas but I don’t know why it should be unthinkable that as one fleshes out the concepts of FV to a greater degree over the course of years (be it 2-3 or 10-15) one’s answers to certain questions will change as well. If you asked me five years ago whether or not I thought paedo-communion was theologically sound I would have said no. For the sake of arguement, let’s say I’ve even published a book about why I think paedocommunion is theologically suspect. Now, five years later I have changed my position. The point here is that for your assessment to be even remotely valid on this issue you would need to demonstrate that Wilkins preached/taught “x” to his congregation or conference goers and then said “y” to Presbytery questions and then continued to preach “x” to his congregation and conference goers. You have not done that in this post or thread.

    I certainly don’t want pastors rearranging their theology all willy-nilly like and if their changing positions affects how they understand, interpret and apply what the Confessions say, then the session and presbytery need to be involved. Of course, that’s where we are at now and, by the looks of things, we’ll never know if Wilkins’ views are “officially” out of accord with the WCF as far as the PCA is concerned. I wish they would have stuck around in the PCA to see this SJC stuff through to the end. Maybe they’d still be in the PCA, if that truly was desired amongst them.

    You say,

    Your answer to the scholarship question undermines most of modern scholarship, which is usually not done face to face. The problem with phone conversations and informal publications such as emails is that they are not usually as carefully thought out as published writings that have been looked over by trusted colleagues. I am sure that just about all the essays in _Federal Vision_, for instance, were reviewed by several of the other authors before publication. The published writings are hence more reliable. Now, I myself am certainly contacting as many of the FV authors as I can for writing my Ph.D. thesis on the subject. However, I am depending on their writings for their views, and only using the contact for quick clarifications of small points. And the only real reason I am even doing that is the outcry that the FV’ers have made concerning this very point.

    I don’t mind undermining the majority of modern scholarship. Theology isn’t really like any other field of study except for philosophy and that should speak volumes about position changing even within a published corpus. Wittgenstein comes immediately to mind (that and I like writing and saying his name). It doesn’t amaze me that something like the WCF has become “standard Reformed theology”; no, what amazes me is how unquestioningly authoritative it has become within the majority of the Reformed community (even in the PCA where strict subscription isn’t mandated). It’s okay for Wilkins to be published saying one thing almost 4 years ago and to now be saying something a little bit different (or even contradictory) than what was written. It’s okay to admit that the WCF isn’t correct in every single point of theology (or even well formulated on some points). These things are from or according to men and not unchangeable. Wilkins isn’t a false brother because he understands justfication and election in a broader way than what the WCF outlines. Tell me something, Lane; do you agree with every jot and tittle in the WCF or with the way every point is formulated? More importantly and to the point, have you ever taught/preached something early in your ministry that you would not now preach or teach?

    You say,

    On your second to last paragraph, you create a false dichotomy. On the one hand, the FV has not been condemned by a judicial court of the PCA. On the other hand, everyone is condemning the FV by their words. You basically assert that there is a mismatch between these two things. Let me say this: a study committee does not have to have the full weight of a judicial opinion in order to have *some* weight. Surely, the study committee report gives us the direction in which the PCA wants to go. That is surely a fair estimate of the weight of the document. Is it then totally unreasonable to conclude from that that those who do not like this direction would feel more comfortable elsewhere? You know, as I’ve thought about this, I am really and genuinely concerned for the blood pressures and heart conditions of the various FV advocates in the PCA. Wouldn’t it be better for their health not to have to worry constantly about being kicked out? Wouldn’t it be better simply to exist in a denomination that is more in line with the direction the FV’ers want to go? Is this totally and completely unreasonable?

    Let me be a little more clear with the dichotomy (which isn’t false). The PCA study report has not condemned any individual, nor has it condemned FV. It makes 9 declarations about some particularly defined theological propositions that are now officially contrary to the Westminster Standards as far as the denomination is concerned. Declarations 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 9 are not even necessarily related to FV. I have agreed with a lot of what I’ve read from Wilson (even with a fair amount of what’s written in Federal Vision from those various authors) but those seven declarations do no harm to FV in as much as I understand FV and the declarations. And yet this report is touted as the end of FV in the PCA? The report is used by those who hate FVers (yes, FVers and not just FV theology) to show that the PCA is against FV when the report says nothing of the sort.

    The PCA, based on this report (or on it’s overwhelming acceptance), cannot be counted amongst the Reformed denominations that officially condemn FV and that’s one of the things I like about how the PCA operates. We normally aren’t brash and quick-tempered. Even with the committee stacked the way it was the PCA is still largely an FV friendly denomination (much to the chagrin and unmitigated (sinful) hatred of some loudmouths within and without). I won’t pretend to know why Wilkins and Co. decided not to stick it out through the trial, but neither will I default to the “look at them get out while the gettin’ out’s still ‘good'” song either. Are they doing the right thing at the right time? No, I don’t think they are; they should take their lumps, as they say. Does avoiding the trial(s) make them false brothers or purveyors of a false gospel? No, it doesn’t; and it doesn’t help your reputation or character to support and give asylum to those who would (and frequently do) make such claims .no matter how much you may like them as individuals.

    You say,

    As to your last paragraph, I wasn’t going to say anything if Wilkins didn’t. But he has attacked the SJC, the study committee report, and anyone who has even whispered the word “heresy” in the PCA. Don’t expect the PCA not to defend itself.

    Fair enough.

  45. jared said,

    February 2, 2008 at 11:24 pm

    darn tags…

  46. February 2, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    Jeff, dear friend,

    Your historical analysis here is unsound; and it is unfortunate that you would take a shot at my own web site (Pooh’s Think) at this late date under the topic of anonymity. My blog was not anonymous, and in fact wore its author’s full autobiography right on its sleeve, along with a cell phone number. And I have made very clear in the past that I filtered those who wanted to make posts to my blog (unless they were criticizing me) for the purpose of being judicial to my critics and also to ensure I did not get in the game of anonymous blogging – something I have always been critical of. Severe criticisms against Wilson coming from those whose identity I did not have a good feel for I almost universally censured. So why have you included my web site with Vision2020 and anonymous attacks? And is my blog filled with ‘vitriol’? Certainly, the more typical argumentative and understated tone of pooh’s think, particularly in the early days, does not fit that description! But alas, has a fellow friend yet loyal Wilson follower ever done me any justice on the world wide web? You were one of my last hopes at this late date.

    As for Mark T., I would also say that Wilson knows his identity and the reasons for not giving that identity are likely numerous. One of those reasons would be judicial: let the man stay anonymous if that is what he really wants and don’t get in the habit of an identity snoop. But one of those reasons is purely strategic: criticizing Mark T. for being anonymous is more effective than any criticism that could come about if Mark T. did reveal his identity; so it is best leaving him anonymous and attacking that one fact. I think Mark T.’s anonymity is unhealthy and I have sought to discourage it. However, facts are facts, evidence is evidence, and primary documents are primary documents, regardless the source of publication. Steering readers away from THESE sorts of things simply because the person posting them is unknown is just typical subterfuge and unhealthy censorship.

    Thanks
    Michael Metzler
    http://www.poohsthink.com

  47. Jeff Moss said,

    February 3, 2008 at 12:17 pm

    Michael,

    Thank you for your response. Yes, on Pooh’s Think you certainly made no secret of your identity, and it was never difficult to contact you to commend or criticize what you wrote.

    My quibble there is that, on your blog, you consistently posted criticism and outright attacks against Christian leaders while concealing the names of the authors. In this way, Pooh’s Think provided a forum for what were, in simple truth, anonymous attacks. What matters is not whether you knew the identity of the authors, but whether those who were attacked and sometimes slandered could know their identities in order to be able to discuss it with them in full daylight, like men.

    May God bless you in your current ventures. I’m going to church now, but I may have more to say later on.

  48. February 3, 2008 at 1:22 pm

    Jeff,

    You failed to address my primary concern; and unfortunately you again get your interpretive history wrong.

    1) Pooh’s Think was not an attack site harboring anonymous ax grinders “against Christian leaders”. Pooh’s Think was created via necessity when I was deep within Christ Church (writer for Credenda, Greyfriar student, long term resident of the Moscow community, etc) and Wilson had a good deal of control of my family’s close social environment in a small town in North Idaho. Pooh’s Think was created only after I was assaulted in countless ways under-ground and publicly by leadership and laymen. At first, I gingerly documented deceit on Wilson’s blog. After this procured higher levels of assaults against me and my family, I gradually increased my level of criticism against how my very own pastor was treating myself and others, and had treated other X-members of his congregation.

    Many months later, after the real purpose of Pooh’s Think had been largely fulfilled, and after I became fully exasperated with how the evangelical world was handling Ligonier’s big-media law suit against ‘Vance’, I then spent some time arguing for what the basic facts and evidence where about the lawsuit matter. The irrationality floating around the internet was atrocious as reformed evangelicals attempted to justify Ligonier’s actions, and I was primarily attempting to set the basic facts straight. I then posted a couple criticisms of Doug Phillips’ (Vision Forum), the same criticisms that Douglas Wilson had found very helpful when I offered them to him in private a couple years before. But then the “Watchman” came out with what I found to be unsubstantiated and libelous accusations against Phillips, and so I then mounted a strong and successful defense of Phillips (with the aid of Matthew Chancey’s fantastic journalism); this resulted in a massive attack campaign against me from kinists and Phillips critics who just wanted to take him down. From there I moved on to primarily my philosophical work and a more detached social analysis of my days in the ‘Kirk’. Once my ‘investigations’ were complete, and once I had come to full conclusions about the Kirk, the larger evangelical internet world, and the nature of the FV debate, I stopped blogging altogether and moved my family to the waves of the Pacific Ocean in San Diego to get through the obvious emotional, psychological, and physical repercussions that result when one gets out from under a man like Douglas Wilson in this way. I guess it goes without saying that most of this will be in my book.

    2) Your concern about my ‘anonymous attackers’ discussing issues “in full daylight like men” is too ironic to be called ‘irony’. It is ludicrous. Wilson hid behind sophistry and assassination throughout the history of Pooh’s Think and to this day refuses to discuss an issue with me eye to eye in the full daylight like a man. The only time Wilson was forced to face me like a man was when PCA Peter Leithart, operating as a neutral party with sympathies for both sides, made him do so in a private session comprising only the three of us. And as for my anonymous friends, some were reformed pastors and the reason they would not want their name attached to Wilson’s next strange culture war is obvious. As for Mark T., he never gave eyewitness testimony, but rather presented primary documents or gave objective arguments he was always willing to personally engage with if any member of Christ Church was at all interested in rational debate. Unfortunately, they never were, and so this never happened. In sum, the concern about ‘anonymity’ with respect to Pooh’s Think is pure subterfuge.

    Thanks
    Michael Metzler
    http://www.poohsthink.com

  49. Steven Carr said,

    February 4, 2008 at 12:50 pm

    I know, I know…judgment of charity and all that, blah, blah, blah… I have to strongly disagree with the statement that Wilkins left the PCA in good standing. This post of yours, Lane, proves to me further that Wilkins is anything but in good standing. In some respects, I wish he had gone to trial, then he could be labeled the heretic and schismatic that he really is.

  50. David Gilleran said,

    February 4, 2008 at 5:49 pm

    Steven, anyone in LAP who thought what Wilkins was teaching was out of bounds had ample opportunity to step up to the plate and file charges starting in Jan 2002. The question is why didn’t they?

  51. Bill Lyle said,

    February 5, 2008 at 3:27 pm

    It seems to me, from Wilkins own words:

    “… Presbytery’s decision not to conduct a trial of me was influenced by the stated unwillingness of some to submit to the outcome of a presbytery trial if that trial resulted in a decision in my favor. Some of the members of the Presbytery informed us that they had already decided to file a complaint against the decision of the Presbytery to the SJC if a trial by the Presbytery exonerated me — regardless of what the trial evidence showed. They also acknowledged that the SJC would reverse any decision which exonerated me.”

    1. He never took seriously the vows he took before the God and His people – see PCA BCO 21-5. 3, 4, 6, 7. (Could it be that Wilkins crossed his fingers when he took these vows and answered affirmative?)

    Now I may be wrong, but for a simple person like me I guess he is stating the following: Now I will submit to a trial only if the following conditions are met:
    a. Everyone in LAP must submit to the ruling of the presbytery.
    b. All member of LAP must forgo their rights to complain and therefore PCA BCO 43 will cease to exist for this trial.
    c. That in LAP – PCA BCO 14 does not exist, nor does PCA BCO 14-6 a, b, c, g, i,

    2. That he, Wilkins, can see into the heart of all 24 men on the SJC and knows beforehand how they will vote on this matter.
    3. That he, Wilkins, can see into my heart and knows how I will vote.
    4. That he, Wilkins, believes the highest court of the PCA is the Presbytery.
    5. That he, Wilkins, would only submit to LAP only if he could control the outcome of the trial and if there was a chance he could not do so, he fled. I guess this means he knows in his heart that his theology may not stand under any kind of examination.
    6. That the men on the SJC lied when they took their vows before God and the church RAO 17-1

  52. Mark T. said,

    February 5, 2008 at 5:41 pm

    Hi Bill,

    Pursuant to BCO 38-3, do you know if the SJC became the court of original jurisdiction after LAP pled guilty to the second specification of the PCA Indictment? If so, then would this mean that LAP does not have the authority to receive Wilkins’ resignation pursuant to BCO 23-1?

  53. Dewey Roberts said,

    February 5, 2008 at 6:32 pm

    Hi Mark T.,

    The question you asked Bill would require a comment from him that he can’t give at this time. The SJC has not yet taken up those questions and it will have to be deliberated by that body and a decision will have to be made about such matters. It would be wrong for either Bill or myself or anyone else on the SJC to comment on what BCO 38-3 says concerning the aspects of this case which are still before the court.
    I would like to point out to some on this board who often decry the SJC for not discussing matters face-to-face with Steve Wilkins that such a conversation with a party to a case which is either before the SJC or potentially may be before the SJC is strictly forbidden by the constitution of the PCA. Doug Wilson has tried to get a lot of mileage out of his “charge” against the SJC that we have never talked with Wilkins. Our constitution forbids us to do so! Think Al Capone. Capone wiggled out of several cases which the government brought against him by jury tampering. The members of the SJC are the jury of the highest court in the PCA. Would Wilson really want the SJC members to engage in despicable jury tampering? If Steve had remained in the PCA he would have had his opportunity to talk face-to-face with the SJC. He chose to leave instead. So, wise people will take what Wilson says with a grain of salt and consider them to be equal.
    Steve Wilkins was one of my best friends at seminary. I have roomed with him at PCA General Assemblies. We have eaten together on many occasions. It gave me no joy that he might be tried before the SJC, but I would have done what I do in every case. I would strictly apply the constitution of the PCA to the record of the case without respect of persons. Wilson called the SJC a kangaroo court. What is a kangaroo court? I think it is a court where the law is ignored and matters are decided by personal favoritism- either for or against someone. The only thing Wilkins or anyone else has a right to expect out of any PCA court is an impartial decision based on the constitution of that body. Personally, I am a strict constitutionalist- and Steve Wilkins knows that very, very well.

  54. Bill Lyle said,

    February 6, 2008 at 8:32 am

    Hi Mark T.

    Dewey Roberts answered your question of me. See RAO 17-1 and SJCM 7

  55. GLW Johnson said,

    February 6, 2008 at 8:50 am

    Bill and Dewey
    I do hope people who are echoing Wilson’s line take note of what you two have posted here. DW has, from time to time, lampooned the PCA critics of the FV as being ‘Baptyrians’ -but as Andrew Sandlin discovered ,Wilson is not a Presbyterian after all ( and his analysis and defense of Wilkins likewise displays that he is woefully ill-informed about the Presbyterian polity) rather-and this is really unique- DW is a ‘Episcobyterian’.

  56. Bill Lyle said,

    February 6, 2008 at 10:09 am

    GLW,

    IMHO – It seems as those who are shooting down the process, have an attitude of “Don’t confuse me with the facts”.

  57. greenbaggins said,

    February 6, 2008 at 10:31 am

    Bill and Dewey, thanks very muich for commenting. Your comments are quite helpful. :-)

  58. Dewey Roberts said,

    February 6, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    Thanks Lane!

    I read your blog frequently. I finally just got tired of Doug Wilson’s campaign of “disinformation” against the PCA and the SJC. I have told friends of mine that Wilson is a prolific writer, but not a profound thinker. Nothing illustrates that better than his disinformation against the SJC. He truly does not know of what he speaks. One of the lost tools of learning is to do “critical” thinking- not criticising thinking. Critical thinking helps us to look at issues objectively and to be aware of our own biasses. The next time Wilson posts something negative about the SJC, I am going to ask him two questions: First, can you show, Mr. Wilson, where or how the SJC acted contrary to the constitution of the PCA? Second, can you show, Mr. Wilson, what constitutional rights belong to members of the CREC to prevent this “travesty” about which you complain concerning the PCA? I hope for his sake that Wilson has the wisdom to lie low because I have taken the measure of a “man of his talents” and have concluded the emperor has no clothes. I won’t let Wilson get by with trying to wordsmith his way out of these questions. He will either have to quote chapter, paragraph and line or he will be exposed as a master of disinformation. P.S. If Wilson doubts me, I would recommend that he contact James Jordan’s pastor, Mickey Schneider (who is a minister in the CREC), under whom I apprenticed in 1973.

  59. February 8, 2008 at 11:28 pm

    Bill and Dewey,

    Thank you for your faithful and selfless service for the church. Good to see you out here in the wild with us. I know that you, Bill, have posted here at least once before, but I don’t remember you, Dewey, posting here. I appreciate you both coming out to set the record straight.

  60. Dewey Roberts said,

    February 8, 2008 at 11:45 pm

    reformedmusings,

    It is quite interesting that Wilson, Jordan and others suddenly don’t want to continue the debate now that they know it will be continued on the basis of the constitution of the PCA by two PCA pastors who are experts in said constitution. It kind of makes it hard to be a propagandist of disinformation when people start referring to facts.

  61. HaigLaw said,

    February 9, 2008 at 8:35 pm

    See my story on the LaP special called meeting today to prepare a defense on our not-guilty plea to count 1 of the indictment for allegedly failing to follow proper procedures in dealing with Rev. Steve Wilkins’ Federal Vision views — at xanga.com/HaigLaw/641621250/lap-hardens.html.

  62. February 10, 2008 at 12:16 am

    […] on the slanderous nonsense being posted around the web about the PCA and the SJC starting with this comment. I’ve tried to make these same points, but the famous Federal Vision hit bloggers seem […]

  63. HaigLaw said,

    February 10, 2008 at 9:24 am

    Rev. Garner of AAPC has wasted no time in responding to the LaP’s request to restate his adherence to PCA’s Constitutional subscription.

    He restated the same scruples he had when ordained and under the heading of extra-confessional beliefs, he pasted in the whole
    Bible, Genesis through Revelation.

    He did not explicitly or implicitly renounce “Federal Vision” theology.

  64. anneivy said,

    February 10, 2008 at 11:38 am

    [blinking] Does Rev. Garner mean that the Bible itself is effectively extra-confessional? If he believes the WCF is doctrinally warped to the point that this is so, why would he want to remain in the PCA?

  65. February 10, 2008 at 2:13 pm

    Seems like Garner just renounced the Westminster Standards and any other confessional standard. By pasting in the entire Scriptures as an exception, he’s mocking the Standards as “containing the system of doctrine taught in the Holy Scriptures.” It’s just a sick joke.

  66. BC said,

    February 10, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    As a lay person, I have been trying to keep up with some of this, though I am not as well versed in PCA Politics and such as most, I have wondered why if they are so sure of what they teach why do they tuck tail and run away?

    Why not stand up and say “This is what we believe and teach, and this is why we (using scripture to back it) believe it to be true.”

  67. greenbaggins said,

    February 10, 2008 at 3:22 pm

    Bob, I completely agree. That is a compete broadside against the standards. How can he possibly hold that the WCF is *the* system of doctrine laid out in Scripture?

  68. HaigLaw said,

    February 10, 2008 at 3:58 pm

    Re: #64, 65 & 67: Perhaps I can clarify this partially. Rev. Garner was asked to reiterate his Confessional exceptions, which he did by reiterating the same two he had when he was ordained. They had to do with paedo-communion and not being as strict a sabbatarian as the Confession states.

    There was a motion on the floor to ask him to ALSO state any beliefs he had that went above and beyond the Confessional standards, not against them, and someone pointed out that this was too broad, and it was voted down. So he was never asked to do this, but he volunteered an answer anyway, by pasting in the entire Bible. My sense, from reading FV writings, is that they believe their views are Biblical, even if they are not specifically stated in the Confessional standards.

  69. February 10, 2008 at 10:27 pm

    Thanks, HaigLaw. I still see him mocking the PCA and the Standards, though.

  70. Thomas said,

    February 15, 2008 at 1:20 pm

    Jeff said, “Moscow, Idaho, has a history of websites such as Vision 20/20, Pooh’s Think, Cultists in Hats, etc., that for years have been providing cover for a small group of anonymous character assassins. Their vitriol has been directed not only against Doug Wilson and other CREC ministers, but also against R.C. Sproul Sr., Andrew Sandlin, Doug Phillips (for a while), and whoever else is the target du jour.”

    Michael Metzler has denied all this, but anyone who’s followed Michael’s escapades knows that he’s been a covert operative in a small cadre of Moscow character assassins who are obsessed by their own narcissistic-driven need to play the victim of some pretended “abuse” by some powerful spiritual figurehead they believe who is bent on taking over an entire community, namely the evil cult leader Doug Wilson.

    The problem for Michael is that his conspiracy theory just doesn’t hold water. Doug Wilson and Christ Church don’t in any way fit the mold of the prototypical cult leader. Rather than being brought up on charges and being disciplined, Michael was just asked to leave the Kirk. That just doesn’t fit with the abusive behavior typical of any cult or even an ecclesiastical tyrant, and the obsessions of Michael’s cadre of character assassins only makes them look like raving lunatics and Doug Wilson appear to be, well, pastoral.

    Michael Metzler’s physical departure from Moscow doesn’t mean that he’s ceased being active in continuing his character attacks, both covertly and anonymously, and far less so now in his proper name as he periodically pops into places like this to offer his lame cover stories. “Pooh’s Think isn’t anonymous. I’ve got my name and cell phone number on it. I’m not anonymous.” But anyone who’s followed Michael’s shenanigans knows that he’s adopted multiple personalities and posted hundreds of anonymous comments on many blogs. He even got busted right on Doug Wilson’s blog, caught red handed, even though he claimed to be “one of the most non anonymous people on the internet” and “one of the most honest men that Doug Wilson ever met.”


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