Justification By Faith Alone?

The next section is on justification by faith. Again, there is much to commend. However, this paragraph falls short of confessional orthodoxy, and in some places, rather badly.

The first paragraph is unobjectionable, as far as it goes. Everything in it is true. But it doesn’t go far enough. It does not say that Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us. Jeff Meyers once made a huge stink about the fact that his 30 reasons couldn’t be read as denying imputation, and that he believed in imputation. I said fine. But the question still remains: if imputation is the heart of justification, then why didn’t he mention it then? And why isn’t it present here? If Jeff Meyers is the expert on justification that he says he is (for he went to the most justification-thumping seminary in existence: Concordia), then he should know that everything depends on imputation, and that imputation must be defended at all costs. I don’t see him making an all-out effort to defend imputation. In the previous section on union with Christ and imputation, they also fall short of saying that Christ’s full righteousness is imputed to us. They say “credited.” But that doesn’t answer the question. Is it imputed or not? Are they using “credited” the same way as “imputed?” The only time they used “imputed” in that paragraph was to deny the importance of the IAOC. They want us to avoid reading them with a hermeneutic of suspicion. It is hard to resist such a hermeneutic with all the lack of clarity going on in FV statements.

The second paragraph is far more objectionable. And again, it is lack of clarity that is the issue here. FV guys really ought to know by now what the critics are saying, and how we view justification as being completely unrelated to our works in any way, shape or form. And yet, the FV insists on maintaining a constitutive understanding of works with regard to justification. Here is the problematic sentence:

Justifying faith encompasses the elements of assent, knowledge, and living trust in accordance with the age and maturity of the believer. (emphasis added)

Just to be clear on what they mean, the previous sentence defines this living trust as “living, active, and personally loyal faith.” There is one thing that needs to be cleared up here: NO FV critic believes that we are justified by dead faith, not even Scott Clark. However, the FV is guilty of mixing up James and Paul here. The question here is whether jusifying faith justifies BECAUSE it is living, or whether the living-ness is an always concomitant accompaniment. It is a question of what the ground of our justification is. The Reformation has always said that faith justifies instrumentally because of Christ’s righteousness (the ground). Faith is the instrument, and Christ’s righteousness is the ground. The sentence quoted above in the FV statement is ambiguous. Charitably read, it is saying the same thing as James is saying. But we are not forced to read it that way. The words admit of another interpretation, which is that because faith is alive, we are justified, which is to say that because of our perseverance (read good works), we are justified. It is hard to imagine a worse way of putting James’s point than the above statement, since, if it is trying to rephrase James, it is using “justifying” in an ambiguous sense. Do they mean it in the declarative sense of Paul, or in the evidentiary sense of James? Or do they argue (as all non-Reformed folk do) that “justify” is used in the same sense in Paul and James? Unfortunately, we have to say that they are using “justifying” in the declarative sense of Paul, because of the first paragraph, which defines justification as the declarative act of God’s grace. So, they are using “justifying” in the way that Paul does, and yet they are including works in the definition. Or at least, it can easily be read that way. Not clear at all.  

210 Comments

  1. August 16, 2007 at 9:53 am

    The FV is the off-spring of Norman Shepherd. He was invited to be one of original key speakers at the infamous Auburn Ave. Conference. The FV is his legacy and nowhere is this more obvious than in this section on justification.

  2. August 16, 2007 at 10:25 am

    I should add that two of men who signed this recent document ,Rich Lusk and Mark Horne, have openly appealed to Norman Shepherd to support their views, and Shepherd’s repudiation of the CoW and the imputation of the AOC have likewise found a receptive audience in the FV.

  3. August 16, 2007 at 11:29 am

    I plead ignorance: “IAOC”? “AOC”?

    Thanks in advance for filling out the shorthand for me. :)

  4. August 16, 2007 at 11:30 am

    Pastor Keister,

    If FV-opponents believe that justifying faith is necessarily a living faith, what is so wrong about saying that is includes an element of “living trust.” The language used here sounds very similar to what Paul used in Romans 4:

    21 [Abraham was] fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”

    Paul looks to be saying: Abraham’s faith was a justifying faith because he had a living trust in the promises of God. I don’t see how this can be construed as anything but a gospel of grace. If Paul says that living trust in God’s promises is grounds for justification, what’s wrong with the FV statement’s wording?

  5. August 16, 2007 at 11:30 am

    imputation of the Active Obedience of Christ

  6. August 16, 2007 at 11:42 am

    Thank you, GLW. :)

  7. greenbaggins said,

    August 16, 2007 at 11:52 am

    The problem is in making that “living trust” the reason or the ground for why we are justified, which is what the FV statement seems to do. Various elements fill out what justifying faith is. But they relate *differently.” The fact that faith is alive is a concomitant truth, not a grounding truth. It is not *because* faith is alive that it justifies. Rather, the faith that justifies is *also* (in addition to being justifying) alive. Faith justifies ***only*** because it lays hold of Christ and His righteousness.

  8. August 16, 2007 at 11:56 am

    It just seems that Romans 4 does use this very language. Verse 21 says that Abraham had a living trust in the promises of God; verse 22 says “That is why” his faith justified him. Certainly living trust is concomitant; looking at Romans 4, why can’t it be constituent as well?

  9. stewart said,

    August 16, 2007 at 1:07 pm

    “infamous Auburn Ave. Conference”

    Infamous. Like the The infamous El Guapo.

  10. greenbaggins said,

    August 16, 2007 at 1:07 pm

    The point of verse 21 is not the livingness of the faith, but is rather describing the content of Abraham’s faith. He believed in the promise. The promise shows us Jesus Christ, since He is the Seed of Abraham.

    The problem with saying that living faith is constituent is this: the only definition of “living faith” that is biblical is one that includes within it works. A living faith works through love, as Paul would say. So, saying that *because* a faith is living that *therefore* it justifies is to make works a part of justification. This is not Reformed.

  11. Mark T. said,

    August 16, 2007 at 2:55 pm

    Hence, Lane, “Reformed” is not enough.

  12. Todd Pedlar said,

    August 16, 2007 at 3:09 pm

    The faith of Abraham could be said to be living because it could be demonstrated (a la James) by fruits of obedience. As Lane says here in comment 10, Abraham’s faith didn’t justify him “BECAUSE” it was fruitful, but it justified him because it was true. Works are ONLY evidentiary, because they are produced by the same Spirit that gave Abraham his faith. The works are NOT and should NEVER be conflated with the faith… this runs counter to Scripture’s witness on the matter.

    Incidentally, Lane, I’m fairly certain that most FV proponents would argue that justification in Paul is exactly the same as justification in James (despite the huge contextual differences).

  13. greenbaggins said,

    August 16, 2007 at 3:25 pm

    Right, Todd, I agree. Even Wilson is shaky on this point.

  14. August 16, 2007 at 3:30 pm

    Lane said: “Faith justifies ***only*** because it lays hold of Christ and His righteousness.”
    That is correct. We agree with that. We are not saying that faith is the ground of justification because it is alive. We don’t think that. We don’t say it. We don’t believe it. Allow me to nuance this a bit further. That’s not our point.
    Now, faith lays hold of Christ. We believe that also. What we are saying is that dead things don’t lay hold of anything. Living things can, but dead things can’t. In order for faith to do what faith has to do (lay hold of Christ and his obedient righteousness), it has to be the kind of faith that only God can give. And that kind of faith is living faith.
    Dead faith can’t move its fingers, and hence cannot “lay hold.” This is actually a very simple point.

  15. greenbaggins said,

    August 16, 2007 at 3:34 pm

    Okay, this is helpful, DW. But are you sure that the other FV guys hold to this? Because Shepherd sure-fire did not.

  16. August 16, 2007 at 3:35 pm

    I’m with Lane. Genesis 15:6 says of Abraham: “And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.” (ESV) All Abraham did was believe God. It wasn’t until years later in Gen 22 that we see the ripe fruits of that faith when Abraham offered up Isaac as commanded by God. Works were not embedded in the faith that God gave Abraham in Gen 15:6, they came later as the fruit of his faith. As Todd said, the works were evidentiary.

  17. greenbaggins said,

    August 16, 2007 at 3:42 pm

    Doug, let me ask you this: do you think that Paul is using the word “dikaioo” in the same sense as James?

  18. Mark T. said,

    August 16, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    Allow me to nuance this: Lane should have emphasized “age and maturity” instead of “living trust” in his analysis, because the Federal Visioneers act like spoiled, immature little monsters who think that they know all things and wisdom will die with them. Of course, the incredible irony is that, notwithstanding their arrogant attitudes and their shameless behavior, they have the nerve to affirm coded words like “living trust,” which ultimately points to their reprehensible works. What a joke.

  19. Dean Bekkering said,

    August 16, 2007 at 4:32 pm

    Doug

    Would you see the need to add the adjective dead to corpse? It seem to me that a corpse is a corpse the same as faith is faith.

    Would you agree with the following statement?:
    “Justification means that ‘Christ himself is our righteousness’ and we are saved by grace alone, ‘in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part.’ Furthermore, ‘whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.’ Along the same lines, ‘We confess together that good works…follow justification and are its fruits.'”

    Rome also signed on to this position in the “Joint Declaration”.

    When the adjective living faith is added it opens the door enough so Catholics and the Federal Vision can all live together in peaceful harmony provided all the others FV men would agree to the above quote.

    Quote taken from CJPM pp 29.

  20. Vern Crisler said,

    August 16, 2007 at 6:03 pm

    We are not justified by a dead faith.
    We are not justified by a living faith, either.
    We have a living faith because we are justified.
    We are justified by a receiving faith.
    Remember, God justifies the UNGODLY (not
    AS ungodly, but WHILE ungodly.) Sola fide
    means that faith is the means, not the analytic
    ground. Accordingly Reformed is enough,
    while FV is bloated soteriology.
    Vern

  21. August 16, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    Vern, does God justify the unregenerate? According to the ordo, God gives me a new heart, and as a consequence I repent and believe. As I result of believing, I am then justified. Regeneration is first.

    This new heart, is it alive or dead? If dead, then how is it different from my old heart? If alive, then how did it happen that the repentance and faith that proceed from it fail to share in that life?

    You point to a “receiving faith.” How can faith act as an agent in this way without being alive. A dead faith cannot receive. A living faith can receive. Of course faith is not the analytic ground, or any other kind of ground. But it is the act of believing rendered by a new creature, quickened by the Holy Spirit of God. Only a living faith can grasp the living Christ.

  22. Robert K. said,

    August 16, 2007 at 8:02 pm

    Wilson, you don’t answer questions or further discussions (which would mean, for instance, actually outlining and admitting just *why* you say Reformed is not enough and just *why* you call yourself Federal Vision when everyday Reformed Christians have no problem calling ourselves Calvinist and Reformed). Like your comment immediately above you recite like a schoolboy “regeneration comes before faith” as if that is the subject and as if that is a revelation. In the very act of defending yourself pretending your novel doctrine doesn’t exist. You – are – a – troll. A self-published theological dilettante with a fetish for bad, Romanist doctrine and very common, age-old bad doctrine at that. You’ve only managed, as theonomists and now as so-called Federal Visionists, to corral the more ignorant and easily duped (and, unfortunately, the more innocent and easily drawn off the path of the straight and narrow) to yourselves. That is your big accomplishment. Along the way you merely appropriate influences that have nothing to do with your program and that you aren’t worthy of and certainly don’t value.

  23. Mark T. said,

    August 16, 2007 at 8:19 pm

    In order to pigeon hole their heterodoxy, the FVers have created categories where none exist — “non-decretal election” and “living trust,” which is another way of saying that they have jettisoned biblical language to justify their unbelief.

  24. Steven W said,

    August 16, 2007 at 8:19 pm

    Canons of Dort Point 1

    Article 4: A Twofold Response to the Gospel

    God’s anger remains on those who do not believe this gospel. But those who do accept it and embrace Jesus the Savior *with a true and living faith* are delivered through him from God’s anger and from destruction, and receive the gift of eternal life.

    Westminster Confession of Faith XI

    II. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and *is no dead faith, but worketh by love.*

  25. Steven W said,

    August 16, 2007 at 8:23 pm

    In 1979 Norman Shepherd writes:

    “But if Paul says that the faith which avails for justification is faith working through love, does he mean that faith derives its power to justify from love so that it is after all love or works that justify and not faith? Not at all! This is the Roman Catholic interpretation of Gal. 5:6,which affirms precisely what Paul denies in the very same verse as well as in the Epistle as a whole. Faith alone justifies, that is Paul’s doctrine. Faith looks neither to itself nor to its own working for justification. Faith lays hold of Jesus Christ and his righteousness and the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to the one who believes. This is the distinctive function of faith in justification, which it shares with no other grace or virtue. The righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to the sinner the moment he believes. He believes and is justified. But Paul nevertheless specifically says in Gal. 5:6 that this faith which lays hold of Christ for justification is not alone, it is a faith that works through love. Hence Calvin says of Gal. 5:6, Indeed, we confess with Paul that no other faith justifies but faith working through love. *But it does not take its power to justify from that working of love.* Indeed, it justifies in no other way but in that it leads us into fellowship with the righteousness of Christ (Institutes III, 11, 20).”

    http://www.hornes.org/theologia/norman-shepherd/the-grace-of-justification

  26. Robert K. said,

    August 16, 2007 at 8:53 pm

    The Shepherd quote is similar to the Wilson quote (and Shepherd, though, I think even came off that game-playing sometime after 1979) in that it is one of their boilerplate “What’s the big problem here, hey…nothing happenin’ here…” implying there is no controversy or competing claims over meaning and so on. No differences. These are meant to be quoted by their followers.

    Obviously this is a problem for FVists. As stated, Romanists like Sadoleto in Calvin’s day at least didn’t have the problem of having to pretend they weren’t Romanists.

    Beast doctrine is Beast doctrine, and justification by faith *and* works (to any sliver of a degree) is Beast doctrine and is evidence of being still in bondage internally to the darkness and death of the Kingdom of Satan.

    Only God can help them, but meanwhile it’s important to keep sound biblical doctrine pure so that it can be seen and recognized and owned by God’s elect.

  27. Robert K. said,

    August 16, 2007 at 11:00 pm

    Keep in mind, historically what the Federal Vision represents has taken assurance away from its followers, joy in the faith away, and created a false piety in its followers (moralism). So all three of these things are talking points of Federal Visionists. Only they protest the opposite in spades. “We are solving the ‘problem’ of assurence” they say. “We drink beer, and laugh heartily ho ho ho!” And, “We are against introspective soul-searching regarding whether one is elect! We are against that!”

    The only problem is their doctrine cultivates all those things they say their doctrine is a solution to.

    This gets us to another: regeneration. FVists, Romanists, all man-centered, man-fearing works righteousness false teachings exist on a foundation of not only a lack of regeneration but a denial of it. (The proud unregenerate don’t want anything only God can give them. That puts them in a position of being subordinate to God.) So what do they do? “We are all about regeneration! I have a category on my blog on the subject of regeneration!” (Wilson has actually said this as a defense that he doesn’t know what regeneration is, in the midst of defending his baptismal regeneration, etc., etc.)

  28. pduggie said,

    August 16, 2007 at 11:05 pm

    My favorite is how the sacraments are a Seal, which means that the sacraments can assure us of salvation. Since that’s what seals are for. No seal, no assurance.

  29. Robert K. said,

    August 16, 2007 at 11:19 pm

    >”My favorite is how the sacraments are a Seal, which means that the sacraments can assure us of salvation. Since that’s what seals are for. No seal, no assurance.”

    This could have been written by Scott Hahn. But I understand your situation. And one can’t prescribe how to get regenerated, but the Word of God is the wild card in the event. I would say fill yourself up with the Word of God, to the brim, engage it with zeal. This will force things. Storm heaven. You’ll either be regenerated by the Spirit or you will be hardened. Doctrine though that tells you to look to your baptism for assurance is sending you in the wrong direction.

  30. pduggie said,

    August 16, 2007 at 11:40 pm

    Actually, It was James Montgomery Boice I got it from, speaking of seals in general:

    “This seal indicates that the authority of the United States government stands behind the passport in affirming that the person … is a true citizen of the United States.

    Sacraments operate in this way. In the case of Abraham … [he] had believed God and God had imparted righteousness to him, God gave the seal of circumcision to validate what had happened”

    Sounds like assurance to me. What’s the point of validating something with a seal if the seal can’t assure you?

  31. pduggie said,

    August 16, 2007 at 11:46 pm

    (Rotbert is so ignorant he forgets that sacraments are visible words, and as such, when I’m assured by them, its the Word assuring me. Sheesh)

  32. Robert K. said,

    August 17, 2007 at 12:11 am

    pduggies, you need regeneration. You need the Spirit. With the Spirit you won’t be looking for ritual like a toddler looks for a binkie for assurance.

  33. Robert K. said,

    August 17, 2007 at 12:44 am

    “HISTORICALLY both Lutherans and Reformed have had trouble maintaining the proper balance between law and gospel. Imbalance produces either antinomianism on the one hand or legalism and moralism on the other. . . In the first three centuries of Protestantism the number of antinomians was very small, yet among 17th century English Protestants there were very exaggerated fears of it. The much greater danger historically facing the Reformation balance of law and gospel has been moralism and legalism. Moralists or neonomians so stress Christian responsibility that obedience becomes more than the fruit or evidence of faith. Rather obedience comes to be seen as a constituent element of justifying faith.”

    “In the Middle Ages there was a tendency to identify law with gospel. The gospel was at times called the new law. For many, keeping the law was an essential element in becoming reconciled to God.”

    – New Dictionary of Theology

    Don’t be a New Medievalist Fvist. Come out of that. When you fall into a teaching that a common dictionary of theology describes so matter of factly you can see you’re merely the newest in a long history of stumblers…

    The New Stumblers. There’s a good name for the FVists…

  34. pduggan said,

    August 17, 2007 at 7:55 am

    I look for Christ in all the places he has promised to be found.

    His word and sacrament.

  35. Grover Gunn said,

    August 17, 2007 at 7:57 am

    I like Turretin’s illustration about the eye as the lone instrumental means of sight for the body. The word “lone” in this context doesn’t meant that eye must be ripped out of the body and isolated in order for it to function as the lone instrumental means of sight. The functioning eye always remains in its organic connection with the rest of the body. Yet there is no other member in the body which sees, and that is the sense in which the eye is the long instrumental means of sight. The same is true of faith as the lone instrumental means of justification. Faith never exists torn from its organic relatioinship with its fruits, but the fruits are not instrumental means of justification.

    The fruit comes from the Christ our faith unites us to, not from the faith itself. Faith is the branch’s abiding in the Vine in a vital, effective sense. From the perspective of divine sovereignty, faith is our experience of the mystial union with Christ effected and maintained by the baptizing work of the Holy Spirit. From the perspective of human responsibility, saving faith is our duty and something we do.

    Every creature lives in terms of faith because of his creaturely limitations. Faith is the evidence of things not seen, and only God sees everything. In eternity, we will live by sight and not by faith, but that is a relative statement, not an absolute statement. We will see much in eternity that is invisible to us now, but we won’t then see everything. Even in eternity, we will be creatures with limited knowledge and thus beings of faith.

    The distinguishing factor in saving faith is its object, which is Christ. Apart from any psychological effect, the effectiveness of faith is based on its object, not its subjective strength. A weak faith in a reliable object is effective, and a strong faith in an unreliable object is not.

    May God bless!
    Grover Gunn

  36. pduggan said,

    August 17, 2007 at 7:58 am

    Was Boice wrong? Does baptism not “validate” or “authenticate” our salvation. I’m happy to listen to claims Boice was incorrect.

  37. pduggan said,

    August 17, 2007 at 8:11 am

    Grover Gunn:

    But is the livingness of faith a FRUIT of faith, or rather a defining quality Faith must always posses? Eyes see, but eyes see because they are enlivened by blood and stuff.

    We’re dead before we have faith, and have to be regenerate logically to have faith.

    “From the perspective of human responsibility, saving faith is our duty and something we do.”

    So, that’s OUR perspective, right? The primary thing we would have to think about would be our “human” responsibilities, right? Something tells me that there are alot of anti FV types who *wouldn’t* be happy to say that.

  38. Dave H said,

    August 17, 2007 at 9:51 am

    Robert

    Certainly you don’t need to answer this question (and maybe it has been addressed before) but since you have a rather strong presence on this blog site, may I respectfully ask your background? E.g. denomination, any seminary training, church elder, over 25 years of age? Again, just curious.

    Thanks

  39. August 17, 2007 at 10:07 am

    Doug Wilson
    Here is a clear as a bell reason why I for one find your involvement in the FV so enigmatic on the surface. The definition of ‘a living faith’ ( which in and of itself is not problematic) flies into the teeth of statesments that I have highlighted here (and in direct correspondance to you), from Rich Lusk and Steve Wilkins, like this one from Wilkins,”The elect are those who are FAITHFUL in Christ Jesus.If they later reject the Savior, they are no longer elect-they are cut off from the Elect One and thus,lose their elect standing. But their falling away doesn’t negate the REALITY of their standing prior to their apostacsy. They were REALLY AND TRULY the elect of God because of their RELATIONSHIP with Christ”(my emphasis). Wilkins’ language implies that these people at one time DID have ‘justifying’ faith and was ‘living’. How else could they be ‘in Christ’? In this scheme a’living faith’ IS defined in terms of perservance or faithful obedience, hence it is the result of maintaining covenantal faithfulness. I sorry Doug, but your ‘spin’ on this will not wash.Not only is this something that cannot be harmonized with the Reformed confessions like the WFC and the Three Forms of Unity, but it is but a Janus-faced form of Arminianism- despite the rhetoric used to justify it by appealing to ‘decretal’ as opposed to ‘covenantal’ election (which, you will remember, Cal Beisner pointed out in the foreword to Guy Waters’ book).

  40. Mark T. said,

    August 17, 2007 at 10:08 am

    Dave H,

    I’m curious why you would make such an inquiry and, as long as inquiring minds want to know, what are your credentials?

    Thanks

  41. August 17, 2007 at 10:29 am

    RobertK, the title of the book is “Reformed” is not enough. Reformed is plenty. But people who call themselves Reformed without knowing what it means are in another category. The scare quotes are needed.

  42. Dave H said,

    August 17, 2007 at 10:33 am

    Mark T (#40)

    As I wrote in #38, I’m curious simply because of Robert’s strong presence on this site (and, I suppose also because he writes with far more robust statements and accusations than other anti-FVers on this site).

    As for me, I make no boast of my “credentials”, and I am typically an observer on this site; but since I asked Robert, and you in turn asked me, I’ll comply:

    Simple church layman in the RPCNA; fifth generation Christian, though I first embraced Reformed theology in the late 1990s thanks to the ministries of Dr. Sproul, Pastor Wilson, Mike Horton; married and father of 5 baptized children; over the age of 35 (okay, okay, I’m 48); have subscribed to Credenda Agenda since early 1990s; Cubs fan.

    Robert – if you care you respond, great; if not, forgive my intrusion).

  43. August 17, 2007 at 10:33 am

    And Gary, you are taking “really and truly” as equivalent to “decretally.” But this debate is between those who say that there is such a thing as a genuine, temporary connection to Christ (covenantally) and a genuine, permanent connection to Christ (decretally), and those who say that the decretal connection is the only possible genuine connection. You are accustomed to limit words like really and truly to the decretally elect alone. But that is not what Lusk and Wilkins are doing. They are not saying that the non-elect covenant member has what the elect covenant member has. But they are saying that he has something, as opposed to nothing at all. There is room for debate on that subject, but not until all parties come to understand what the debate is over.

  44. Mark T. said,

    August 17, 2007 at 10:41 am

    Gary,

    Don’t let Wilson’s involvement in the FV vex you, as enigmatic on the surface as it may be. Robert nailed it when he identified Wilson as their designated front man responsible to smooth over their terrorist image by appearing on various blogs whenever someone points out a glaring problem. Sometimes he dazzles us with breathtaking statements, such as his recent denial that no one had flagged that “humiliating typo” from RINE; other times he staggers us with his outrageous accusations, such as his statement that his opponents refuse to debate him because they’d rather poison their fund-raising letters by saying that “faith alone” is under attack. They just want the money.

    It is as you said, Wilson’s involvement cannot be explained by his surface statements; you must look deeper and not believe a word he says.

  45. Mark T. said,

    August 17, 2007 at 10:42 am

    Thanks, Dave!

  46. August 17, 2007 at 10:58 am

    Brick Wall
    “All in covenant are given ALL that is true of Christ. IF they persevere in faith to the end they enjoy these mercies eternally” (Steve Wilkins). So here we have people who at some point in their lives really DID have ‘saving faith’ which DID actually ‘justify’ them and DID secure for them the forgiveness of sins otherwise they could not be ‘in Christ’ which is clearly what Wilkins is affirming, and yet this ‘saving faith’ was not enough-but you jump in and say that I have misunderstood what Wilikins & co are saying, the ‘faith’ of the NECM never was ‘saving faith’ at all ,else they would persevere- but then how DID these people ever come into the REAL possession of all that is true of Christ? As a Amber Ale as opposed to a Stout FV, I would think this would be one of those issue over which you would seperate yourself from your fellow FVers. Apparently not, and therefore I am forced to conclude that you are not the Amber Ale you claim to be.

  47. Sean Gerety said,

    August 17, 2007 at 11:13 am

    The problem with saying that living faith is constituent is this: the only definition of “living faith” that is biblical is one that includes within it works. A living faith works through love, as Paul would say. So, saying that *because* a faith is living that *therefore* it justifies is to make works a part of justification. This is not Reformed.

    Bingo. Not Reformed and not Christian.

  48. Robert K. said,

    August 17, 2007 at 11:34 am

    DougW, “Reformed” is not enough is as much an equivocation as everything else you write. You don’t speak for Reformed doctrine. Thank God for Sproul and Packer and Berkhof and Vos and Calvin himself, and the Westminster divines and Ursinus and Olevianus, and the Dutch Calvinists, and the English and American Puritans. The Scots as well.

    In your world, Doug W., when you say: “people who call themselves Reformed without knowing what it means are in another category.” you are saying Thomas Boston is not Reformed (stop and think about that). R. C. Sproul is not Reformed. J. I. Packer is not Reformed. Robert L. Reymond is not Reformed. All those mentioned in the paragraph above are not Reformed. Because they don’t conform to your “Wilkins and Lusk” FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Doug, you have difficulty with discerning scale. This is a problem people have who also have what are called mental problems. You are like Dave Armstrong the Roman Catholic apologist who genuinely believes his collected blog posts are more historically important than the collected works of Luther and Calvin combined.

    Dave H., I’m a Christian. I don’t mind your question, but if it’s a worldly resume you’re looking for…seminaries can produce fools, and the Holy Spirit has been known to make fools to fear God and get real wisdom. My approach to the FVists is as it is because they are pretending to be Reformed Christians put and simple. They are wearing the uniform of the army they are fighting. That is insidious and it calls for a different degree of confrontation than is usual with other groups with mere bad doctrine but honesty in their self-identification…

  49. Sean Gerety said,

    August 17, 2007 at 11:45 am

    In this scheme a’living faith’ IS defined in terms of perservance or faithful obedience, hence it is the result of maintaining covenantal faithfulness. I sorry Doug, but your ’spin’ on this will not wash.Not only is this something that cannot be harmonized with the Reformed confessions like the WFC and the Three Forms of Unity, but it is but a Janus-faced form of Arminianism- despite the rhetoric used to justify it by appealing to ‘decretal’ as opposed to ‘covenantal’ election

    Amen and spot on! Peel back the Christian sounding veneer with and there you have it. Nice work.

  50. Steven W said,

    August 17, 2007 at 11:50 am

    Pastor Johnson,

    I can suggest a way of understanding Wilkins’ statement that will make sense of what he’s getting at and avoid the charge that the non-elect covenant member had “saving faith.” Of course we’ll need to define saving faith as perhaps “persevering faith.” This is a distinct type of faith given by the Holy Spirit, but I suspect we’ll bump into all other sorts of categorical disagreements even from the start.

    When Wilkins speaks the way he does, he is attempting to be Christo-centric. All of the so-called “ordo benefits” are things that are properly true of Jesus Christ, and we can only have them credited to us insofar as we are one with him. Wilkins is operating wuth a fundamentally different ontology, and I have not seen this adequately addressed so far in the debate.

    “Faith” and “perseverance” are not exactly the same category of salvific benefits as forgiveness, justification, adoption, et al. Faith and perseverance are actually aspects of the individual’s response to the gospel proclamation, enabled of course by the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. So the individual is called to believe and persevere, and when he does believe, the Holy Spirit unites him to Christ, thus granting all of the things true of Christ to the believer. This is what Wilkins is trying to get at. We are not to offer the benefits of Christ outside of offering the person of Christ. Sinclair Ferguson explains this rather helpfully in his discussion over the Marrow Controversy.

    But I suspect that we’ll hit your brick-wall fairly quickly because historically John Owen (and a few others) have shifted our whole way of looking at things. Owen invoked a double-jeopardy argument that basically said that Jesus even forgives the elect’s failure to believe, thus drastically reducing the historical receptive role of faith. Perhaps it was due to the Arminians in his day, but Owen’s argument here really requires faith be a “work.” This argument was not received by most of the Reformed in Owen’s day, and it is clear in later writers such as Hodge and Dabney, that this was considered a confusion of categories. For them the gospel came with the condition of believing. I think that Owen’s understanding has gained the majority position now, and thus the gospel practically means “The elect are saved.” We have a hard time speaking of temporary benefits.

    So if we can accept a Christocentric understanding of the gospel offer, as well as a communicatio idiomatum in regards to covenant membership, the substantial question should be over temporary faith. Is there such a thing, and can it receive temporary benefits? If so, how should we speak of it? I think that Wilkins’ main point is that when we speak objectively to all those in covenant (and thus we use something akin to the communicatio idiomatum) we are saying something that is true, however many other finer qualifications we add later.

    I think we do this in other areas of systematics ( For instance, saying: “God died” or when Calvin, Vermigli, Ames, Olevianus, Burgess, et all spoke of baptismal regeneration), and so there ought to be room for discussion on this without immediately rejecting the statement.

    Pastor Wilkins and Pastor Wilson do disagree over whether or not it is even appropriate to speak of “substance-ontology” benefits, ie. a benefit that is “yours” apart from the context of historical union and perseverance. I think they agree on the end result, but Wilson is still comfortable with a slightly more abstracted or end-of-time view, whereas Wilkins wishes to maintain a present orientation.

  51. Dave H said,

    August 17, 2007 at 12:03 pm

    Robert

    Thanks, though I was hoping for more (your only qualifier, and certainly an important one, was “Christian”). You didn’t mention your denomination, and I’m curious if they would welcome the young infant just baptised as a “Christian”, even though not regenerate.

  52. Robert K. said,

    August 17, 2007 at 12:09 pm

    But Steven, Steven, Steven… In the approach of Wilkens, a predominant concept is the concept of metatextual language. Therefore, he uses the term ‘self-aware disingenous narrative’ to denote the bridge between union with Christ and perseverance. The act is interpolated into a abstract cognitive construct that includes dogmatic ‘speaking church to revelation’ as a paradox. You havn’t taken this into account in your third or your fifth paragraph. These become eroded pillars of a collapsed ontology that was corrupt even prior to you stating: “Of course we’ll need to define saving faith as perhaps “persevering faith.”” I’ve tried to read yo charitably, and if I’ve gotten something wrong please correct me.

  53. Robert K. said,

    August 17, 2007 at 12:18 pm

    Dave H, I guess I would answer that it doesn’t really matter what I would accept or what church I would belong to would accept. Reformed Theology is not about me, it’s about the five solas and doctrines of grace and the Covenant of Redemption as it works out in time (whether you bundle the CoR as one division of the CoG rather than giving it its own term, etc., etc. Classical Covenant – Federal – Theology. Which is apostolic biblical doctrine.

  54. Sean Gerety said,

    August 17, 2007 at 12:44 pm

    They are not saying that the non-elect covenant member has what the elect covenant member has. But they are saying that he has something, as opposed to nothing at all. There is room for debate on that subject, but not until all parties come to understand what the debate is over.

    No, there really isn’t Doug. God made no covenant with non-elect members of the visible church. Read your Confession. Further, not all members of the visible church are in a “real” or “living” union with Christ or whatever other adjectives you may want to include. To include reprobates, even reprobate baptized children of believers, as member of Christ’s body is exactly the kind of word play that has allowed FV men like you to bring in works through the back door. Your false gospel should be obvious to all since even perseverance has become a covenantal and eschatalogical outcome rather than a gift given to all those united to Christ the moment they first believe.

  55. Vern Crisler said,

    August 17, 2007 at 1:58 pm

    #21

    Hi Doug,

    First, you are not taking into account the difference between God’s
    decision to justify the believer, and the application of justification to
    the believer. See,
    http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/akjust2.htm

    Second, I did not deny means. One must be regenerate before one
    can have faith. One must also be physically alive, too.

    Third, as some have noted, the term “living faith” is too ambiguous
    to clarify the nature of justifying faith. One is suspicious of adjectives
    that might compromise the principles of grace. Better to use resting
    a receiving.

    Fourth, is it the FV position that God justifies the godly?

    Cordially,

    Vern

  56. R. F. White said,

    August 17, 2007 at 2:19 pm

    DW asserts: “But this debate is between those who say that there is such a thing as a genuine, temporary connection to Christ (covenantally) and a genuine, permanent connection to Christ (decretally), and those who say that the decretal connection is the only possible genuine connection.”

    I respect the fact that DW’s assertion may be blog shorthand and not all the DW would say. But, speaking as an FV critic, and only for myself, I do not see the debate as DW does. The debate from where I sit has been over whether a genuine covenantal connection to Christ differs from a genuine decretal connection to Christ and, if so, in what particulars.

  57. Chris Hutchinson said,

    August 17, 2007 at 2:51 pm

    Well, and that the debate is now over in most NAPARC denominations and affiliated seminaries, and the FV side lost.

    When I have lost a debate in various church courts, I did not keep arguing the point, but accepted the loss and moved on.

  58. pduggan said,

    August 17, 2007 at 3:24 pm

    “The problem with saying that living faith is constituent is this: the only definition of “living faith” that is biblical is one that includes within it works”

    I don’t believe that. I believe living faith is a faith produced by a regenerate heart. Full stop.

  59. pduggan said,

    August 17, 2007 at 3:29 pm

    “Therefore, he uses the term ‘self-aware disingenous narrative’ to denote the bridge between union with Christ and perseverance. ”

    He does? Where?

  60. pduggan said,

    August 17, 2007 at 3:31 pm

    “But I suspect that we’ll hit your brick-wall fairly quickly because historically John Owen (and a few others) have shifted our whole way of looking at things. Owen invoked a double-jeopardy argument that basically said that Jesus even forgives the elect’s failure to believe, thus drastically reducing the historical receptive role of faith. Perhaps it was due to the Arminians in his day, but Owen’s argument here really requires faith be a “work.” This argument was not received by most of the Reformed in Owen’s day, and it is clear in later writers such as Hodge and Dabney, that this was considered a confusion of categories.”

    That’s very interesting. Fits with how Lutheran’s see the receptive role of faith.

  61. tim prussic said,

    August 17, 2007 at 3:58 pm

    Dave H., you’re just asking for disappointment by dealing with certain folks here that only rant and can’t answer a clear question put to them. I’d steer clear.

    Dr. White (#56) – I think your questions are quite fundamental and actually reflect the heart of a good deal of the debate I’ve seen on this and other blogs. Folks seem to react to FV statements because they assume that covenantal union with Christ is and always is salvific union. Thus, that union’s reserved for the elect alone. If we take that position (which I used to), we grant a tremendous foothold to Arminians in passages that we just can’t handle convincingly (specifically, apostacy passages). If, however, we distinguish ‘twixt covenantal union and saving union, we have a better theological matrix and far fewer problem passages (plus, we yank the carpet out from under the Arminians!). If we have that distinction in hand, we need to examine it and define EXACTLY what we mean by covenantal union (a broader designation) and saving union.
    To be as simple as brief as I know how: to be in covenantal union (CU) is to be brought by God into the communion of his people, under the stipulations of his covenant and the consequent sanctions. To be in saving union (SU) is to be in CU and in addition, by God’s grace, to meet the stipulations and be consequently blessed. The stipulations of the COG of faith and repentance are met in the decretally elect because God works those graces in them. One can be in CU (but not SU) without faith and repentance, but when it’s evident that faith and repentance are not present in the covenant member, God’s given his church means and commands to cut such out of the covenant. The person who’s cut out is now subject to all the curses of the covenant. More curses than he would have had were he never CU.
    Maybe that’s enough to generate discussion with a little more focus.

  62. David Weiner said,

    August 17, 2007 at 4:53 pm

    Vern,

    You said in #55 “One must be regenerate before one can have faith.”

    Would you be so kind as to give me a few words on what you mean by regenerate? My description of a regenerate person would hinge on the Holy Spirit having already indwelt that person.

  63. August 17, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    Chris H,

    “When I have lost a debate in various church courts, I did not keep arguing the point, but accepted the loss and moved on.”

    Does this mean that when the church court of Louisiana presbytery vindicated Wilkins twice, the critics accepted the loss and moved on? Or am I not understanding how this works?

  64. greenbaggins said,

    August 17, 2007 at 5:04 pm

    Douglas, the Presbytery is not the final authority in this matter. The Standing Judicial Commission has to rule on this. They will not do so until October. The various courts have different levels of authority. The SJC is the supreme court in the PCA. They are the only ones who can settle a dispute between presbyteries (which is what is currently happening: several presbyteries have voiced concerns to the SJC of the LP’s vote. Furthermore, at least one member of the LP has appealed the presbytery’s decision. He has done so *to* the SJC). I really wonder why it is that many FV guys think that presbytery is the final court of appeal in the PCA. The SJC is the final court of appeal.

  65. Grover Gunn said,

    August 17, 2007 at 5:05 pm

    It sounds as if we are getting back to the point that the covenant can be viewed from two aspects. There is a whole chapter on the dual aspects of the covenant in Berkhof’s ST. These two aspects are described in various ways: the broader and the narrower sense, the administration and the essence, the external and the internal, the legal relationship and the communion of life, etc. The regenerate in the church participate in the covenant in both aspects, but the non-elect in the visible church participate only in the broader aspect and only temporarily. This broader aspect of the covenant, related to its administration in history, is implied by the teaching of our standards that infants with at least one parent with a credible profession of faith are to be baptized because they “are in that respect within the covenant.” Not all covenant infants are individually elect, and yet all covenant infants are in a broad sense “within the covenant.” According to our BCO, they “have an interest in the covenant” and will, “when they have reached the age of discretion,” “become subject to obligations of the covenant: faith, repentance and obedience.”

    But here is what John Barach said, quoted on page 309 of The Auburn Avenue Theology, Pros and Cons:

    BOQ
    The Bible doesn’t know about a distinction between being internally in the covenant, really in the covenant, and being only externally in the covenant.
    EOQ

    If the FV disagrees with John Barach and teaches the dual aspects of the covenant as explained above, then what is new and different about FV teaching?

    Grover Gunn

  66. August 17, 2007 at 5:05 pm

    And Sean,

    I didn’t say what they had. I said they had “something.” That something is the connection to Christ described in John 15. It is the thing, whatever it is, that makes it possible to trample underfoot the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified. And if you prefer the Confession to the Bible, it is that thing which makes it possible for non-elect covenant members to be guilty of the body and blood of Christ through their abuse of the Lord’s Supper — “but, by their unworthy coming thereunto, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, to their own damnation” (WCF 29.8).

    Something, not nothing.

  67. August 17, 2007 at 5:07 pm

    Lane, then what you are saying is that it isn’t over, and that the courts haven’t spoken, and that Chris Hutchinson was asking my friends to move along prematurely?

  68. Mark T. said,

    August 17, 2007 at 5:22 pm

    Perhaps, Mr. Wilson would show us exactly where Chris Hutchinson asked his (Wilson’s) friends to move along prematurely, and then maybe he could tell us why he didn’t apply Mr. Hutchinson’s remarks to himself rather than his friends.

  69. greenbaggins said,

    August 17, 2007 at 5:45 pm

    No, it isn’t over. The study committee report is a shot across the bow, shall we say. It indicates what direction the guns of the PCA are directed. If the FV ships wish to avoid the broadside that is coming, then they will leave.

  70. August 17, 2007 at 6:18 pm

    Cute analogy, Lane, and appropriate.

    I guess it depends on what one considers “over.” None of the PCA officers who signed the joint statement have come before their presbyteries since the 35th GA. That changed the landscape significantly. Even before that, one presbytery examination committee admitted that they didn’t have time to adequately study the individual’s views. Listening to the recordings of proceedings in another presbytery sounded more like a meeting of a “good ol’ boy” club than a serious ecclesiastical examination, even loaded with apologies to the examinee.

    I personally expect the landscape in the presbyteries to continue moving with the 35th GA vote, accelerating as we go through the coming year. As I’ve said many times, it’s a shame that a few men believe that it’s OK to drain the precious resources of the church away from spreading the gospel to require contentious and divisive trials.

  71. August 17, 2007 at 6:19 pm

    “There is a whole chapter on the dual aspects of the covenant in Berkhof’s ST. These two aspects are described in various ways: the broader and the narrower sense, the administration and the essence, the external and the internal, the legal relationship and the communion of life, etc.”

    As with so many things, Berkhof’s ST is definitely required reading on this topic. If folks would humbly digest Berkhof (or, at the very least, read him) a whole lot of the current confusion and resulting novelties would never have been generated.

  72. Michael Saville said,

    August 17, 2007 at 6:46 pm

    Lane, how could a member of Lousiana Presbytery appeal when there was (to my knowledge) no trial held?

  73. Dean Bekkering said,

    August 17, 2007 at 7:10 pm

    Pastor Wilson

    RE #66

    Would a NENonCM not be guilty of body and blood of the Lord? I think this is the logical question that arises from your distinction. Or would the NENonCM be not guilty because he is not in something that the NECM is in?

    I think CD III&IV 4 is helpful here. “There remain, however, in man since the fall, the glimmerings of natural light, whereby he retains some knowledge of God, … But so far is this light of nature from being sufficient to bring him to a saving knowledge of God, and to true conversion, that he is incapable of using it aright even in things natural and civil. Nay further, this light, such as it is, man in various ways renders wholly polluted, and holds it in unrighteousness, by doing which he becomes inexcusable before God.”

    Both the NECM and the NENonCM, or preferable just plain old reprobate, both be guilty of the blood of the covenant because of the natural light in them leaves them without excuse.

    Dean

  74. tim prussic said,

    August 17, 2007 at 7:40 pm

    Dean, I’m not pastor Wilson, but I’ve been accused of being his bull dog (!)…

    I think you’re onto something, but you’re possibly barking up the next tree over. Specifically, the BLOOD of the covenant refers to the COG and the sacrifice of the mediator of the covenant. NENCMs are under the covenantal curses of the COW, right? They broke the covenant (as we all did) in their father Adam. However, one who come to the COG, takes *that* covenant upon himself (or who’s born into it) and is a reprobate will incur greater curses. To whom much is given… he’s sinning against greater light. Since every sin will be accounted and punished, the NECM will be under a greater condemnation than NENCMs. Part of that greater condemnation will be the curses of the COG.

  75. Dean Bekkering said,

    August 17, 2007 at 8:15 pm

    Tim

    If a person straight from the “hood” visited your church and sat next to you. You knew this person enough to know that he did not have any visible fruit and was not baptized. When the bread was being passed for communion and he took out his hand and took a piece would you immediately think that was OK. Would you think that since he is not baptized it would be impossible for him to eat and drink damnation to himself?

    Or would you direct him to I Cor 11:27 and emphasize the WHOSOEVER part of the verse that ends with “guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.”

    How can the NENonCM be guilty of the blood of the Lord? How is this “blood of the Lord” different from the “blood of the covenant”? What qualitative differences would the FV advocates distinguish between the “blood of the covenant” and the “blood of the Lord”?

    Not withstanding I believe that the one who was in the visible church or broad form of the COG would be under greater condemnation. I also believe that Judas will be under greater condemnation that my grandmother who is in the visible church but does not have any fruit or understanding of the gospel.

    Dean

  76. pduggie said,

    August 17, 2007 at 8:26 pm

    “The SJC is the final court of appeal”

    I would have thought GA was tghe final court, but it seems they have delegated their authority to some hand-picked folks.

  77. pduggie said,

    August 17, 2007 at 8:29 pm

    “If the FV disagrees with John Barach and teaches the dual aspects of the covenant as explained above, then what is new and different about FV teaching?”

    Biblicism. Saying “Who cares about all the fine distinctions we think we need to make to keep our theology ‘consistent'” What’s important is talking to our people with the words of the bible, inspired directly by God, and letting God;’s word do its work instead of thinking we’re cleverer than God and need to remind covenant people they MIGHT fall out all the time, instead of reminding them of all the GOOD BLESSINGS the “REALLY” have, not just “externally” can be said to have.

  78. August 17, 2007 at 8:56 pm

    […] behind. I will be perpetually behind at this rate. Green Baggins has posted a nice write-up on Justification by Faith Alone. Don’t miss the comments in these discussions. While there are some unfortunate comments, […]

  79. Grover Gunn said,

    August 17, 2007 at 9:24 pm

    In #43 above, Doug Wilson sounds like he is affirming the traditional Reformed concept of the dual aspects of the covenant (see Berkhof’s Systematic Theology, pp. 284ff) while maybe tweaking the terminology. Yet the statement by John Barach sounds like a clear denial of the substance of the traditional Reformed concept of the dual aspects of the covenant. This is an example of why the FV is confusing.

    On June 26 on another blog, a FV advocate defended this quotation by John Barach. I sent in the following response:

    BOQ
    For an argument against the teaching that there is no qualitiative distinction between the covenant union (narrowly considered) experienced by the regenerate and the covenant union (broadly considered) experienced by the non-elect in the visible church, I recommend this article by Doug Wilson:

    http://dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=358
    EOQ

    Grover Gunn

  80. tim prussic said,

    August 17, 2007 at 9:44 pm

    Dean, it’s “da hood.”

  81. August 17, 2007 at 9:59 pm

    Dean, the nonbeliever is a covenant breaker before God in Adam, no blood of the new covenant involved. A non-elect member of the new covenant, however, is sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. He is a covenant breaker in a double sense.

    Grover, thanks for catching the point of that quote. I believe that was the same one the PCA study committee understood backwards. I differ with some of my FV friends on that point, so it need not be confusing. And some other of my FV amigos have qualified their language in a more traditional direction, which I was happy to see.

    MarkT, I didn’t apply the remarks to myself because I am not in the PCA. In the CREC I was examined, everything was fine, and we have moved on.

    Reformedmusings, you said: “As I’ve said many times, it’s a shame that a few men believe that it’s OK to drain the precious resources of the church away from spreading the gospel to require contentious and divisive trials.”

    To which someone might reply, “Why are you wasting my time getting beat up like you are? What are you doing lying on the ground like that? Why do you think it is appropriate to get blood from your face all over my knuckles?” I like that — the people bringing charges, making accusations, creating controversy, and so on, then turn around and accuse those they are attacking of wasting their precious time. You really ought to know enough about this controversy to be able to state who is on offense, and who on defense.

  82. August 17, 2007 at 10:00 pm

    RE #76

    puggie,

    The GA appoints and oversees the SJC (RAO 17-1). BCO 15 governs the interaction between SJC decisions and the GA. Specifically BCO 15-5 covers the GA consideration of SJC decisions which result in formal minority reports.

    The 24 SJC members are all elected by the GA. They are not hand-picked. Nominations come from the presbyteries to the nominating committee, the members of which are also nominated by the presbyteries and approved by the GA. Like all recommendations by the nominating committee, commissioners may make nominations from the floor for the SJC (BCO 15-4). The process could hardly be described as hand picking.

  83. August 17, 2007 at 10:26 pm

    RE #81

    DW,

    Cute, but WAY off point. This is not an arbitrary or trivial situation like the one you posit. Please see comment #57. Since you aren’t in the PCA, I guess that I shouldn’t expect you to honor our denomination’s rulings, though as a Christian brother you probably should not aid and abet those who defy them. Your call. However, I do expect PCA officers to submit to their PCA brothers since they swore an oath in that regard.

    As for creating controversy, the PCA was generally doing well until the Auburn Avenue conference in 2002. The PCA, RCUS, BPC, OPC, OCRC, RPCNA, and URC didn’t start anything. That distinction belongs strictly to those who are trying to redefine the Westminster Standards and 3FU over the objections of the overwhelming number of their brothers in seven denominations (so far). Not your denominations, but a Christian brother shouldn’t be inciting or aiding dissent within other ecclesiastical bodies. Again, your call.

  84. Robert K. said,

    August 17, 2007 at 10:30 pm

    ***“If the FV disagrees with John Barach and teaches the dual aspects of the covenant as explained above, then what is new and different about FV teaching?”

    Biblicism. Saying “Who cares about all the fine distinctions we think we need to make to keep our theology ‘consistent’” What’s important is talking to our people with the words of the bible, inspired directly by God, and letting God;’s word do its work instead of thinking we’re cleverer than God***

    You’re a bit off-message here, pduggie. FVists are claiming to be in conformity to the confessions. They want much more than you naively write here.

    ON BERKHOF AND FVISTS

    I have seen some anecdotal evidence in his internet writing that Doug Wilson tends to avoid Berkhof like Arminians tend to avoid certain verses and passages of the Bible. Just like they avoid Geerhardus Vos. The later avoidance is more damning in that FVists have affected to claim the mantle of the true and only practitioners of Reformed biblical theology. There are many things that make FVists look comical, the very existence of Vos is one of them.

  85. Sean Gerety said,

    August 17, 2007 at 10:33 pm

    didn’t say what they had. I said they had “something.” That something is the connection to Christ described in John 15. It is the thing, whatever it is, that makes it possible to trample underfoot the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified.

    John 15 says nothing about non-elect covenant members and I don’t know how many times the parable of the vine and the branches has to be explained to you men?

    Something, not nothing.

    I realize you are always trying to get something from nothing, like in your attempt to make false brothers real brothers in RINE [96]. Magic aside, those who are cut away are those who appear to be, but are not, Christians; members of the CoG. False teachers included. Remember, Jesus said; “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” And, if there were any questions about what it means to abide in Christ, since the Gaffinesqe nonsense about existential union has impressed some, Jesus explains it in v. 7

  86. Grover Gunn said,

    August 17, 2007 at 10:36 pm

    In #81, Doug Wilson said,

    BOQ
    Grover, thanks for catching the point of that quote. I believe that was the same one the PCA study committee understood backwards. I differ with some of my FV friends on that point, so it need not be confusing.
    EOQ

    Yes, that is the citation which was removed after the first public posting of the study report.

    I find your comment above helpful and enlightening. If you accept the dual aspects of the covenant, then I would think you would also reject the interpretations of Paul’s epistles found in some FV articles in which all to whom one of Paul’s letter is addressed are interpreted as being uniformly justified, adopted, saved, forgiven, etc. I address this issue here:

    The Visible Church as the Saints

    If you have the time to read this, I would appreciate your response.

    Grover Gunn

  87. Dean Bekkering said,

    August 17, 2007 at 11:09 pm

    Pastor Wilson

    How does the WHOEVER in I Cor 11:27 not apply to the non-elect non-covenant members?

    Am I to always interpret the word “whosoever” to always not apply to the non-elect non-covenant members? Does this mean that when Jesus said “whoever commits sin is a slave of sin” He was not referring to the non-elect non-covenant member?

  88. Vern Crisler said,

    August 17, 2007 at 11:18 pm

    Hi Grover,

    The problem is that FVists do tend to accept the dual aspect of the covenant THEORETICALLY, but tend to deny its relevance at a PRACTICAL level. It all has to do with their “objectivist” view of the covenant, not reading the decree, etc.

    Vern

  89. Dean Bekkering said,

    August 17, 2007 at 11:38 pm

    Pastor Grover

    Barach is not the only guilty party. Lusk in talking about NT Wrights understanding of corporate justification says, “But note this does not leave him unconcerned with questions of individual salvation and assurance; indeed Wright, rightly, reminds us that if you have the corporate, you get the individual thrown in as well.” NT Wright and Reformed Theology – Friend or Foe pp24

    If I understand this FV stuff correctly then Lusk believes once you are brought into the covenant by baptism and have a justification in some sense which is really a corporate justification you get the individual justification thrown in as a bonus feature.

    Am I to believe they are offering free individual justification over by the baptismal fount at Trinity Presbyterian Church? How else should I understand this?

  90. Robert K. said,

    August 18, 2007 at 1:01 am

    Doug, could you post a list of all the Reformed theologians of the present and past who you deem to *not be* Reformed? We have already:

    Thomas Boston
    Robert L. Reymond
    Louis Berkhof
    Ursinus (remember, he didn’t live up to the FV claim that he denied the imputation of the active obedience of Christ, so he’s out)
    Geerhardus Vos (he’s a difficult presence to deal with, he makes Leithart sound like Al Franken; well, fortunately Vos is still seen suspiciously in Reformed circles for spawning people who eventually influences people like us, so if they don’t like him we don’t have to smear him for now)
    Meredith G. Kline (oh Great Enemy of Theonomy, rest in peace, fallen foe, but we will continue to use you as an epithet based on that quacky theory of yours on the days of creation, that deflects enough from the fact that your writings make us all look like Al Franken)
    Edward Fisher (we havn’t mentioned him much, but he is REALLY not Reformed, whoever he was)
    Bunyan
    John Owen (outed by the FV as a drug addict)
    Spurgeon (probably had six or seven wives at the same time)
    Calvin (NO! We must keep Calvin to maintain our authenticity. We learned this from our theonomy days. Lose Calvin and you lose everything!)
    Edwards (nobody actually reads Edwards, so FV can claim him or dismiss him as not Reformed…save for later)
    A. A. Hodge (not in wide circulation, attack him if necessary, meanwhile let the dead dogs lie)
    Dabney (Dabney’s surprisingly a wobbly here and there, we can use him, save for later)
    Dathenus (right, until more than two people know about him don’t waste time building a necessary cache of deceptive quotes from his work, but he could be a danger if he gets more widely known, then again, law and gospel it too easy to junk up with sophistic weaponry, so don’t wast any time with him)
    John Brown of Haddingtom (ha ha, nobody remembers him, don’t waste your time cutting his knees out)
    Dutch Calvinists, Witsius/Brakel/et al (ethnic fetishes, could be trouble as they get better known, better start building up some files on each of them)

    Any others, Doug?

  91. Robert K. said,

    August 18, 2007 at 1:43 am

    See the FVists from a larger perspective. They’ve developed their new doctrine. Their new system of salvation. As is usual taken piecemeal from bad doctrine of the past, but their unique ‘brew’ (a metaphor they like to use, by the way). But they are proud false teachers. They are cool and proud. They know there’s no point in developing new doctrine if it’s just going to be seen as another Jehovah’s Witness tract against the truth of Reformed Theology. So the FVists not only want to have their new doctrine, they know for it to be really worthwhile they need to plant it on top of the fortress of Reformed doctrine. Their Dome of the Rock planted on top of the Temple Mount. All this nonsense that has been going on is the rhetorical struggle of the FVists as the scratch their way – or attempt to – up the side of Fortress Reformed Theology. They won’t make it. It’s a ridiculous objective. But they know they have nothing if they just have their brew of bad doctrine. No matter how many they can pull into their net it is all for nothing if the Fortress of Reformed Theology is looking down on them and exposing them for what they are.

  92. August 18, 2007 at 7:34 am

    That item in the most recent FV document that spoke about ‘scholastic and hyper-techincal language’ creating ‘confusion’ continues to grab my attention, especially in light of the responses that this post has elicited. From where I sit this whole thing about the NECM possessing ‘something not nothing’ is highly confusing, especially sense Doug is very reluntant to tell us what this ‘something’ is! Meanwhile Wilkins and Lusk have run ahead of the pack declaring that it is EVERYTHING that is true of ALL that are in Christ. Speaking as a pastor,if I brought into what Wilkins and Lusk are saying,i.e. there are people who actually do possess ‘salvation’ (to use the altar call language, they are ‘saved’) at some point in their lives in that they have their sins forgiven because they have been justified by faith alone-as the ENTRY level- if I really believed that, especially regarding my children-I would kill them and guarantee that they wouldn’t lose what they now possess. Then we could spent eternity together in heaven. As it is, all loud protest notwithstanding, what we have here is an Arminian understanding of a contional salvation that is losable.

  93. Sean Gerety said,

    August 18, 2007 at 8:32 am

    If I understand this FV stuff correctly then Lusk believes once you are brought into the covenant by baptism and have a justification in some sense which is really a corporate justification you get the individual justification thrown in as a bonus feature.

    You don’t have to question your understanding, you’ve understood these men perfectly. Follow this one from Joel Garver, a man Wilson cites favorably in RINE:

    [E]lection is only revealed in and through the covenant. The covenant people are the elect people of God in Christ, the Elect One of God. Sadly, many of those who are among the elect people will turn out to be reprobate through apostasy. Nonetheless, God’s purposes stand as he gathers his elect people in and through the covenant. Those who persevere in faith have no one to thank but God in his free and sovereign electing love poured out — salvation is by grace alone. Those who apostatize have no one to blame but themselves for having squandered God’s good gifts…. If someone is in Christ by baptism — united to the Head as a member of the Body — then that person is elect. If that person apostatizes and no longer abides in Christ (like the branches in John 15), he is no longer elect in Christ, but is reprobate, should he never repent and return. Whatever time we abide in Christ is a manifestation of God’s electing love for us and faithfulness to us.

    According to Wilson, “both the true and false son are brought into the same relation” to Christ. So what is the determining factor that separates the sheep from the goats? Wilson explains that “faith in the biblical sense is inseparable from faithfulness…. But when we have faith that works its way out in love, which is the only thing that genuine faith can do, then the condition that God has set for the fulfillment of His promise has been met” (186-187, emphasis added). The ones who, through their faithfulness, “meet the condition that God has set for the fulfilment of His promise,” become sheep. In the objective covenant in which the sinner meets conditions and fulfills his covenantal obligations, thus qualifying himself for the salvation God has promised, Wilson confuses works with sanctification, and both with justification. Wilson’s conditional objective covenant is an outright denial of the Covenant of Grace and the doctrine of justification by faith.

    In Wilson’s theology “evangelical obedience” is a condition which must first be met before the promises of the covenant (which both the reprobate and the elect receive in baptism) can be fulfilled.

    Wilson quotes Randy Booth: “Only faithful covenant membership (i.e., those full of faith in the Savior), receive the covenant blessings, including the blessings of imputed righteousness” (175, emphasis added).

    I’ve cited this before, but notice the imputation of Christ’s righteousness is the result of being a faithful covenant member. Wilson immediately adds, “This is fundamental to the central point of this book. Election is one thing and covenant membership is another.”

    For Wilson it is the conditions of salvation that God sets at baptism that become the dividing line between salvation and damnation: “Those who obligate themselves under the terms of the covenant law to live by faith but then defiantly refuse to believe are cut away” (134).

    Perhaps Wilson is a much better salesman hocking this stuff, but IMO salvation by faith and works has not been better expressed even by the pope himself. I honestly don’t know why anyone takes Wilson seriously? Probably because most Christian men can’t believe what their reading, no matter how many times they read the same thing. Thankfully Lane, Pastor Johnson (he nailed it once again above) and others here believe what they read from these men. Others, who ought to know better, act like they’re fumbling around in the dark.

    See ya’ll in a week God willing. I’m off to the beaches on the Outer Banks where I will purge all things FV (and work related) from my mind. :-)

  94. jared said,

    August 18, 2007 at 8:34 am

    Posters in this thread who are clearly not Reformed:

    Sean Gerety
    RobertK
    MarkT

    Well, MarkT is on the fence but I’m sure he’s hanging over on the side that Sean and Robert are playing. The fall is inevitable.

  95. Dean Bekkering said,

    August 18, 2007 at 9:02 am

    Pastor Johnson

    RE Post 99

    “What we have here is an Arminain understanding of a conditional salvation that is losable.”

    Exactly!!!!!!

    The only difference between this and Jacob is that as it relates to covenant salvation Jacob was honest enough to admit that the good works would have to logically be in some respect meritorious.

    If not how does it not become meritorious?

  96. Robert K. said,

    August 18, 2007 at 9:15 am

    >”Posters in this thread who are clearly not Reformed:
    Sean Gerety
    RobertK
    MarkT”

    Saying it doesn’t make it so, Jared. You’re engaging in magical thinking at this point.

  97. jared said,

    August 18, 2007 at 10:10 am

    RobertK,

    It’s quite obvious that you and Sean are the “face” of an anti-Wilson cult and, as such, certainly cannot be Reformed in any sort of traditional understanding of the term. Denying it only shows your guilt. I would urge you and Sean repent and believe in the One whom God has sent as a propitiation for your sins. You can still have salvation, it’s not too late!

  98. Robert K. said,

    August 18, 2007 at 10:22 am

    >”It’s quite obvious that you and Sean are the “face” of an anti-Wilson cult and, as such, certainly cannot be Reformed in any sort of traditional understanding of the term. Denying it only shows your guilt. I would urge you and Sean repent and believe in the One whom God has sent as a propitiation for your sins. You can still have salvation, it’s not too late!”

    What I’m about to write is not satire. Jared you’ve written a paragraph of pure cult-think here. You’re defining who is Reformed by who isn’t against your teacher Doug Wilson. Then you seem to come close to saying Doug Wilson is ‘the One’ whom God has sent.

  99. Robert K. said,

    August 18, 2007 at 10:28 am

    Well, since Doug Wilson and the Federal Vision are the training wheels on Romanist bicycles I suppose it’s understandable you would use such language, Jared…

  100. Dean Bekkering said,

    August 18, 2007 at 10:31 am

    Sean

    Good post!

    How do we get imputed righteousness?

    Lusk says, “While Wright shies away from the term ‘imputation’, virtually synonymous terms such as ‘recon’ or ‘confer’ are used.” NTW and Ref Theology pp 12

    By making ‘imputation’ is the same as ‘confer’ Lusk understand the WCF to teach we receive the imputation of Christ’s active obedience when we are baptized. No wonder they stress the word “confer” in WCF 28.6 so much because they want it to teach imputation.

    I would add the phrase “serious and heretical teachings” instead of the word ‘disagreement’ in the following statement.
    “But there are also important areas of disagreement or ongoing discussion among those who are identified as ‘Federal Vision’ advocates. Some of these areas would include, but not be limited to whether or not the imputation of the active obedience of Christ (as traditionally understood) is to be affirmed in its classic form.”

    I thought imputation was tied to justification which was received by grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone not baptism.

    Move this here, move that there, and now I agree with the WCF in good faith because I understand it the way I want to believe. It seems irrelevant to Lusk and his friends that he takes a blender to the ‘system of doctrine’ taught in the WCF and creates a FV cocktail.

    Enjoy your vacation.

  101. August 18, 2007 at 10:35 am

    Jared
    How do you know you are not one of the NECM? How does anyone know? Show me a single Reformed confession or recognizable Reformed theologian from Calvin to the present ,that remotely hints that a person can actually LOSE their justification and all that goes with it.

  102. kjsulli said,

    August 18, 2007 at 11:26 am

    Jared thinks unfallen Adam would have fulfilled the Covenant of Works “by faith alone” (#115 here). Is Jared Reformed?

  103. jared said,

    August 18, 2007 at 11:54 am

    Robert K.,

    More of your anti-Wilson rhetoric and lies. May God have mercy on your (and anyone who follows you) soul. Wilson certainly is not my teacher and there are plenty of Wilson critics who are Reformed (like the purveryor of this blog, for instance); but you (and Sean, and those who follow you two) are not. Look at how you even twist my words to fit your hate-ridden agenda! I urged you to repent and believe in Jesus (“the One whom God has sent”) and you turned it into a reference to Wilson? How warped your thought processess must be! Repent and believe, for you will not get another chance once this life is done.

    G.L.W. Johnson,

    Who is saying anything about losing justification? More importantly, are you speaking of corporate justification, as the Church is the justified body under Jesus? Because one can lose that justification by falling out of the body. It happens every day. No one, that I have read anyway, is saying that you can lose your justification if you are decretally elect. NECM lose the (corporate) justification they have by virtue of being temporary members of the body of Jesus.

    As for how I know I’m not a NECM? I’ve no reason to doubt that I am. I believe Jesus is faithful and will keep me and will finish the work He has begun in me. Do NECM’s believe this? Probably. Will they continue in their belief? No. Will I continue in my belief? God willing, yes. Until I show myself to be non-elect, I’ve (and no one else has) any reason to believe or doubt otherwise. I will continue to strive against the flesh that wars against the spirit and I will continue to believe that I have victory through the finished work of Jesus. What more assurance can I (or anyone) have than that? Is my assurance false? I don’t believe it is, in fact I know it isn’t but that is not something I can express (or prove) to you by word or deed.

    WCF 18 says my assurance is infallible and that I will never slip so far away from “that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the bretheren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty” that I cannot “in due time, be revived”. Is it possible to believe and agree with the WCF and still be wrong? Sure. Am I? Again, I do not believe so.

  104. jared said,

    August 18, 2007 at 12:04 pm

    kjsulli,

    He would have fulfilled the covenant of works by being obedient and that obedience would have stemmed from his faith in the word of God (see comment #121 in that same thread). This is the same way we “fulfill” the covenant of works, except Jesus is our mediator because, by ourselves it is impossible; hence covenant of grace. Adam had faith alone in what God told him and that faith enabled his obedience which, then, would be fulfilling the covenant of works. Adam didn’t have obedience plain and simple; Adam would not have fulfillied the CoW by works alone. Just as the covenant of grace benefits us because of faith (which nets us someone elses perfect work) the covenant of works would benefit Adam because of faith accompanied by his own works (since he was sinless already). What is not Reformed about that? More importantly, even if I differed with the Reformed tradition on that one point, how would that put me completely outside of Reformed Orthodoxy?

  105. Robert K. said,

    August 18, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    Jared, you’re an example of a follower of Federal Vision who is simply currently ignorant of Reformed doctrine. You’ve yet to die to the law. You don’t yet have a conviction of your own state as a fallen human being. The Federal Vision wolves prey on Christians like you. You, for instance, are naive as to why Federal Visionists demand to strip works from the Covenant between God and Adam. You’re currently unable to see why works righteousness is death. I can understand your sensitivity to Christians like myself, but even there you’ve indulging a little bit of false piety which you’ve probably picked up from the Federal Vision teachers you obviously been hanging around (hanging around cyberly if anything else).

  106. Dean Bekkering said,

    August 18, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    Jared

    You being your defense that your are not an NECM by saying that “Jesus is faithful and will finish the work He has begun in me.” Fantastic! Stop there.

    But you added, “I will continue to strive against the flesh that wars against the spirit and I will continue to believe that I have victory through the finished work of Jesus. What more assurance can I (or anyone) have than that?”

    Maybe you do not mean this but does part of your assurance come from your ability to “strive against the flesh” and “continue to believe”? Maybe you are super sanctified but even Paul said “the good that I would I do not and the evil that I would not that I do”.

    Or did you intend to communicate the idea that because you desire to do good is an evidence that you have true faith and because you have true faith there is NOW no condemnation and NOTHING will separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus?

    Maybe my sniffer is on overdrive today, but I interpreted your comments to mean you were “not persuaded” like Paul in Rom 8:39 was.

  107. Robert K. said,

    August 18, 2007 at 12:57 pm

    Things like this:

    http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=4329

    are why Doug Wilson and so-called ‘Federal Vision’ will never be taken seriously by any but his own rather dumb followers. This nonsense plays to no one with a doctrinal I.Q. above 70. Not to mention the most basic level of discernment given by the Holy Spirit. Or just everyday common-sense that discerns between what is real and what is pure rot.

  108. Robert K. said,

    August 18, 2007 at 1:09 pm

    HELLO, DOUG. YES, I KNOW YOU DON’T LIKE READING COMMENTS FROM ME, BUT GATHER YOURSELF AND READ ONE MORE…

    Doug, I may take a break from your nonsense, but meanwhile I’m still waiting for your list of Reformed theologians past and present who you deem not to be Reformed. That list is something you can’t draw up, I realize, because it convicts you. Doug and Lusk and Wilkens are Reformed but Thomas Boston, John Brown, and a Brakel are not.

    When you finally erect this Federal Vision Dome of the Rock on top of Reformed Theology what will you have, Doug? I mean, really, what will you have? A big symbol of heresy and a dead, apostate land? Is that what you want? You devil you…

  109. tim prussic said,

    August 18, 2007 at 1:32 pm

    Bobby, do you respect Pastor Lane? If so, why would you? He’s taking his time to interact with a devil. If not, why do you spend so much time here spewing hateful garbage?

  110. kjsulli said,

    August 18, 2007 at 1:41 pm

    Jared, re: 104,

    See #126 in that thread (to which you never replied). You continue to equivocate. Once again, “faith alone” could not fulfill the Covenant of Works. Obedience accompanies, but is not constitutive of, faith. To say that unfallen Adam would have received his reward in the same way we do is nothing short of heresy. You need to correct your theology.

  111. August 18, 2007 at 2:23 pm

    RobertK, all the men you listed are really, truly, and gloriously Reformed. They can’t help it when they are defended by men who make them look bad.

  112. R. F. White said,

    August 18, 2007 at 2:28 pm

    Tim Prussic,

    Way back yonder [in #61], you responded to my observation that the focus of the FV debate is on whether a genuine covenantal connection to [= “covenantal union with”] Christ differs from a genuine decretal connection to [= “saving union with”] Christ and, if so, in what particulars. If I’ve understood you correctly, covenantal union differs from saving union in that covenantal union does not supply what saving union does, namely, the grace [=graces of faith and repentance] to fulfill God’s stipulations and thus be blessed. That helps me understand your thinking. Thanks.

    Let’s fast-forward this tape: DW tells us that Lusk and Wilkins “are not saying that the non-elect covenant member has what the elect covenant member has. But they are saying that he has something, as opposed to nothing at all.” Respectfully, if the claims made by FVers were as innocuous as DW states, there would be no controversy. Confessionally informed folks know about such things as “common operations of the Spirit” in the visible church. So this much is not controversial: common operations of the Spirit, for example, are something for both the NECM and the ECM, and something is indeed not nothing.

    But, of course, there is a controversy and that’s the case in large part because it has long been clear that Lusk and Wilkins have said much more that that the NECM has “something as opposed to nothing.” In published statements by Wilkins in particular, we’ve been told that all the visible church, NECM and ECM alike, have “all the spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.” DW himself has agreed with FV critics against Wilkins that the NECM’s blessings do, in fact, differ from the ECM’s. But DW still identifies with the FV. So FV critics are forced to ask, does DW himself really know what the debate is over, at least from the viewpoint of the FV critics? In other words, why does this difference mean so little to DW and so much to FV critics?

    Well, here’s my take as an FV critic: if the FVers other than DW are right and the NECM’s blessings are the same as (i.e., are undifferentiated from) the ECM’s, then we cannot account for the irresistible grace of God that leads to the salvation of the ECM. In other words, we have to differentiate the blessings of the NECM and the ECM lest we confuse and mislead our audiences on the soteriology of the Scriptures. No small stakes there.

  113. August 18, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    Grover, I read the article you linked to, and had no problems with it. I think I addressed those issues in RINE, with my chapters on the sons of Belial, false brothers, and so on. I agree with my FV brothers that NECM have some kind of “really there” connection to Christ, but it is not a salvific connection. But I agree with you in that I don’t believe the forms of address in the NT letters makes that point. For those instances, I am comfortable with the judgment of charity. I would make the case for “really there” connection to Christ (I am avoiding the phrase “genuine connection to Christ” in the hopes of talking RobertK in off the ledge) from passages like John 15, and Romans 11.

  114. August 18, 2007 at 2:44 pm

    R.F. White,

    “Respectfully, if the claims made by FVers were as innocuous as DW states, there would be no controversy.”

    The controversy was well under way (thanks to Joe Morecraft and John Robbins) before anybody had a clear idea what it was all about. The heat preceded the light. In the course of that controversy, some of the things that Steve Wilkins had said earlier, he and his session subsequently qualified (which I was happy about), but by this time this humble willingness to be corrected was taken as evidenc of theological dishonesty. The early statements are still being used as evidence of the “real” FV.

    But when examined by his presbytery, Steve acknowledged that there was a qualitative difference in the present between the ECM and the NECM. I have asserted this from the beginning — there are chapters on it in RINE.

  115. Mark T. said,

    August 18, 2007 at 3:01 pm

    Wilson writes,

    “I like that — the people bringing charges, making accusations, creating controversy, and so on, then turn around and accuse those they are attacking of wasting their precious time. You really ought to know enough about this controversy to be able to state who is on offense, and who on defense.”

    I urge Mr. Wilson to abandon his alternative universe of make believe so that he may join the rest of us who live in reality, because comment #81 is compelling evidence of chronic brain damage caused by habitual misrepresentations; and comment #114, blaming this controversy on Morecraft and Robbins, is proof that blameshifting and shamelessness go hand in hand. Get help, Wilson, you are delusional.

    Thank you.

  116. jared said,

    August 18, 2007 at 3:07 pm

    Robert K.,

    I understand that your cult has indoctrinated you so that engaging the truth is difficult. However, I believe in the power of the gospel to save and I do not believe you are so far out of reach. Your “assessment” even of Wilson on the link you post is completely unintelligent and something that somebody with a “doctrinal I.Q.” of 4 would put forth as “a basic level of discernment.” I will pray for you that you might find the narrow path and come to a true and saving knowledge of Jesus and of the Father, for that is eternal life.

    Dean Bekkering,

    I consider my striving as my “duty… to give all dilligence to make [my] calling and election sure” so that my “heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience” which are “the proper fruits of this [infallible] assurance”. (See WCF 18.3) Does this help clarify?

    kjsulli,

    I am no more equivocating than one who says “faith alone” fulfills the Covenant of Grace. Biblical faith simply does not exist in a vaccuum, neither does biblical works; that’s all I am saying and I don’t think the Reformed Tradition (or FV theology) would disagree with me on this point. Yes Adam’s obedience would’ve fulfilled the CoW, but his obedience would not have been faithless. Yes our faith “fulfills” the CoG, but our faith is not worksless. Again, how is this heresy or outside of standard Reformed theology? This is the problem with systematic theology (and I don’t mean “problem” as in “we shouldn’t do it”), it can compartmentalize truth so much that controversies like what we have here between FV and TR result. Now, I will qualify this by saying I haven’t read a lot of the published material from either side. I have recently acquired “The Federal Vision” by Wilkins and the comparative analysis book by Waters, but I haven’t read them yet. I was born and raised in the PCA and don’t have a great understanding of theology outside of this context, so maybe my theology does need to be corrected.

    You, however, have not offered a compelling reason to change my above view. You say in comment #126 (from the other thread) that “Adam neither had nor required any mediator, and he was not a recipient of saving grace. Only his obedience could have justified him before God.” I don’t recall ever attributing saving grace to unfallen Adam, nor do I recall saying he needed saving grace. Since I do not believe obedience doesn’t occur outside the context of faith, I must disagree with you about “works alone” for unfallen Adam’s potential justification. Moreover, had Adam obeyed it would have been according to God’s grace (no?).

  117. R. F. White said,

    August 18, 2007 at 4:03 pm

    Hey, DW.

    I appreciate the interaction. Don’t miss my acknowledgement in #112 that you yourself did and do maintain a difference between the NECM and ECM. (You and I agreed about this back in 2003.) As for subsequent affirmations of that difference by Steve Wilkins, I am happy to acknowledge his effort and to affirm his honesty, even if the success of his honest effort is still an open question. Earlier statements will remain relevant as long as and to the extent that they survive in the current give-and-take in the form of concepts such as corporate and temporary justification.

  118. Grover Gunn said,

    August 18, 2007 at 4:19 pm

    #114

    Again, Doug, I appreciate this clarification. Thank you.

    When Steve added his qualifications, didn’t he simply add duration, final outcome and a mysterious unknown quality which causes the differing duration and final outcome? Is that correct? If so, do you think that is really adequate? He may have said more somewhere, but I haven’t seen it.

    I don’t regard the factor which makes the difference in duration and final outcome as unknown. It is the Holy Spirit’s working according to the decree of election, working efficacious regenerating grace in the hearts of the elect alone and working His common operations in the hearts of both elect and non-elect. He works invisibly to me, but I know He is making the difference and I know how He is making the difference.

    Some of the old FV statements are strong, and they don’t appear to be merely rhetorical hyperbole. If some FV proponents have changed their views such that they now acknowledge that the Holy Spirit gives true spiritual life only to the elect and that the non-elect never bear, not even temporarily, the same spiritual fruit which the regenerate bear and that there is a qualitative difference between the “sap” of grace (not just a quantitative difference or a duration difference) which goes to the elect branches and that which goes to the non-elect branches, etc., I think it would greatly help if they would clearly say so. It would also help if they would clearly acknowledge the errors in their old statements, publicly and specifically retract them and openly disagree with others who are still committed to these old errors.

    The nine declarations are an effort to isolate the significantly erroneous views found in public FV articles and lectures. It would be wonderful if those who made these old FV statements came instead to agree with the nine declarations and were able to say so unambiguously.

    May God bless!
    Grover Gunn

  119. August 18, 2007 at 6:48 pm

    I just wanted to note for the record how much I appreciate the manner in which Lane, Vern, Grover, and R.F. White are discussing these things. I thank you.

  120. Mark T. said,

    August 18, 2007 at 8:13 pm

    Notice that Wilson’s expression of gratitude did not acknowledge ReformedMusings, did not thank him, and certainly did not answer him — and this is not because ReformedMusings has not been gracious and it’s not because he has not been any less charitable than the others. It’s because ReformedMusings held Wilson accountable for his irresponsible behavior when he wrote,

    “. . . but a Christian brother shouldn’t be inciting or aiding dissent within other ecclesiastical bodies. Again, your call.”

    Of course, Wilson is the so-called “Christian brother” inciting and aiding dissent within the PCA, most likely because he holds dear the peace and purity of the church. Regardless, the point is that if you want to get along with Wilson you have to ignore his sin, and if you don’t care for his approval then call him to account.

    But I must observe that while the Federal Visioneers have hung their hats on “covenant keeping,” they don’t hesitate to break the oaths they made to their brethren in Christ — all in the name of heterodox covenantal theology. Perhaps they should rename it Federal Hypocrisy.

  121. Dave H said,

    August 18, 2007 at 8:34 pm

    Ditto to what Pastor Wilson stated. Some have displayed a godly maturity and dignity in their posts, despite disagreements over issues; versus the unusually extreme approach which appears to be common to others. Obviously, it is easy to succumb to the temptation to rant when posting in such faceless forums (accomplishing nothing). I suppose that even the likes of Mr. (fill in the blank, on either side) would assume more of a civil nature if we were all sitting in a room together, discussing these matters. Friendships might mysteriously develop; and in other instances, cases of extreme blushing. Such things happen when Christians are in fellowship. But such is the blessing, and concurrent curse of the Internet. We’ve got to try just a little bit harder…

  122. jared said,

    August 18, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    MarkT has let go of the fence. If I were you, Mark, I’d start climbing fast before Robert and Sean get their hooks in you.

  123. August 18, 2007 at 9:34 pm

    MarkT, I am happy to add my thanks to ReformedMusings for his manner in debate. Leaving him off my list was an unfortunate oversight. My apologies.

  124. Dean Bekkering said,

    August 18, 2007 at 9:47 pm

    Pastor Wilson

    In the event you missed these questions please answer the following two questions.

    From Pastor Keister #17
    “Doug, let me ask you this: do you think that Paul is using the word “dikaioo” in the same sense as James?”

    From myself #87
    “How does the WHOEVER in I Cor 11:27 not apply to the non-elect non-covenant members?” Context explained in #73 and additional clarification in #75.

    Dean

  125. August 18, 2007 at 10:51 pm

    DW – RE #123, no offense taken here. Human lists are prone to oversight, especially when the comments top 100 in a given conversation.

    David H. – RE # 121, that is the unfortunate nature of the faceless Internet and encompasses email as well. In the days of written letters, we had time to rethink our words before putting the envelope in the mail and then the mail carrier coming to pick it up. email and blog comments feed our (myself included) depraved desire for instant gratification, often failing to garner the same careful consideration as a snail mail or face-to-face. That doesn’t mean that we cannot hold firmly to our views or express them clearly on issues. It does mean that there is a line that we ought not cross. I have repented of crossing that line once on my blog, and expect that I may again be required to do so. We’re all sinners saved by grace.

    Even so, I come from a background where vigorous and heated debate is generally followed by downing liquid bread and perhaps sharing lunch or dinner together. I am an avid shooter like some of the prominent FV leaders and would probably enjoy a day at the range with them punching holes in paper with high-speed projectiles. As I’ve said a number of times before, I (and most others) still consider them brothers in Christ.

  126. kjsulli said,

    August 18, 2007 at 11:50 pm

    Jared, re: 116,

    I am no more equivocating than one who says “faith alone” fulfills the Covenant of Grace.

    In other words, you mean “faith alone” differently than the entirety of the Reformed tradition, seeing as how you feel free to use it to describe the means by which Adam would have received the promised reward. Why do you, and others, act so surprised when the rest of us charge you with departing from the truth? The self-professed biblicism of FV-pushers notwithstanding, where does Scripture EVER describe the relationship of unfallen Adam to God using “faith alone,” e.g., “faith apart from works of the law”? It does not! Yet PRECISELY this description is used of sinners justified before God. “Faith alone” has specifically soteriological associations, scripturally, confessionally, and systematically. By saying that Adam would have received the promised reward of life “by faith alone,” you depart first and foremost from Scripture. At best, such confusion is indicative of profound ignorance.

    Yes our faith “fulfills” the CoG, but our faith is not worksless.

    Our faith in itself IS workless. By faith we trust God to be our righteousness in Christ Jesus, resting on the work which Christ already accomplished. This is “faith apart from works of the law”! As I said above, obedience always accompanies, but is not constitutive of, faith. Nor indeed was Adam’s faith constitutive of his (short) obedience. Faith does not include works; works do not include faith. Works accompany faith. The constant refrain from the FV crowd that they are simply pointing out that works are also important is a red herring. Who denies this in Reformed circles? Why the necessity of harping on it ad nauseam as they do, constantly pointing to the “justification” in James as though no one had ever addressed it before in light of Paul? And if what they are saying really isn’t anything other than “standard Reformed theology,” they have gone out of their way to act as though it really were different.

    I was born and raised in the PCA and don’t have a great understanding of theology outside of this context, so maybe my theology does need to be corrected.

    What PCA church has taught you that Adam would have received the promised reward “by faith alone”?

    I don’t recall ever attributing saving grace to unfallen Adam, nor do I recall saying he needed saving grace.

    I had both your comments and pduggie’s in mind when writing that reply, as you both were apparently defending the same position. See pduggie’s comment in #96 in that thread, “Is God putting Adam in a state of glorification an act of God’s free grace? or something else?” Additionally, you had commented that Adam would have received his reward in the same way as we do, by grace through faith. Both of you were trading off a certain ambiguity in the term “grace,” as I also pointed out in #132. You are still doing so even in this comment!

  127. Robert K. said,

    August 19, 2007 at 12:15 am

    A NOTE ON THE LANGUAGE
    OF DOUG WILSON AND THE OTHER
    FEDERAL VISIONISTS

    Notice their use of language when discussing doctrine:

    I can be comfortable with that
    If this way of saying it is changed I will have less problem with it
    I can agree to that, even without the qualifications you mention
    That’s a point I can be won over on, perhaps
    I’ve said in the past I’d be willing to look that over again
    I I I I I
    etc., etc., etc.

    This is the language of the still man-centered, Old Man within still in control. This is the language of vanity, worldly pride, and self-will.

    Regenerate believers don’t talk like this regarding apostolic biblical doctrine. We are given ability by the Spirit to discern the truth and accept it, to know it, no ifs, ands, or buts. Because it wasn’t ‘us’ that agreed to anything. ‘We’ didn’t have to be ‘won over.’ I’ve had debates and arguments with Reformed doctrine, but as a student who was developing, not as a teacher or ‘special catch’ dictating or demanding to be ‘won over.’ If I didn’t buy into Reformed doctrine I’d be an Arminian or Jehovah’s Witness or Roman Catholic.

    Federal Visionists leaders know Reformed doctrine is the truth. They are here to debase the truth. To attack God. To attempt to draw God’s people away from the truth. The only benefit to the devil and his followers in doing this is to gain time before their inevitable destruction, but that is all the devil has. Stalling tactics. This is what the devil was doing during the Roman Catholic tyranny. In time, in the fullness of time, time as God perceives it rather than time as it is in our limited perception, God is drawing His own out and into His Kingdom. The devil and his followers obviously can effect this but only to stall and annoy the plan.

    I would say to the young and currently new-to Reformed doctrine to not get involved with false teachers such as Doug Wilson and Federal Vision. Stay on the old paths. You can’t yet discern what those false teachers are up to regarding you and regarding apostolic biblical doctrine. You detest appeals to authority, and that is fine, but common-sense plays a role as well.

  128. Robert K. said,

    August 19, 2007 at 1:15 am

    DOUG WILSON WRITES:
    >”RobertK, the title of the book is “Reformed” is not enough. Reformed is plenty. But people who call themselves Reformed without knowing what it means are in another category. The scare quotes are needed.”

    THEN DOUG WILSON WRITES:
    >”RobertK, all the men you listed are really, truly, and gloriously Reformed.”

    Thomas Boston, John Brown, and a Brakel (the Reformed theologians I mentioned in contradistinction to the three worthies Lusk, Wilkens, and Wilson) are clearly not Reformed based on Wilson’s demands as to what Reformed doctrine “really” is. Wilson’s book compared to Boston’s Human Nature in its Fourfold State, Brown’s Systematic Theology, and a Brakel’s Christian’s Reasonable Service is a thin line of mucous hanging out of the breathing orifice of any liberal ‘X’ theologian at any liberal ‘X’ institution of learning in America or Europe.

    The only difference is: Wilson and the FVists are Sadoleto pretending to be a Calvinist. Comical Cardinal Sadoleto has “got a plan.” This time (he says) he won’t attack Geneva with “all that baggage” of Rome, but just pretend to be “one of them.” Yes! They can’t possibly defend themselves against such a brilliant plan. “Brilliant!” shout the other Federal Visionists.

    It’s tempting to just say these FVists have mental problems. Difficulty dealing with reality and all that, but that is too simple. Really, they are just run-of-the-mill Romanists in sheep’s clothing. That is to say, individuals who “truly and gloriously” give their allegiance to the devil. And they want you where they’re at. In the ‘glorious’ Kingdom of Satan.

    Stay to the old paths, folks; and, in understanding be men.

  129. Robert K. said,

    August 19, 2007 at 1:37 am

    On Wilson’s blog he and his students are talking about the necessity of inserting baptism into the ordo salutis. And there is consternation that Reformed theologians havn’t done this from the beginning.

    Maybe kissing the Pope’s ring could make you a higher level saved being. Why stop at ritual water baptism…

    We could rewrite the Book of Romans too (the Book of Romans is Not Enough):

    8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also [had water sprinkled on by an officially ordained cleric graduated from an accredited seminary]: and whom he [had water sprinkled on by an officially ordained cleric graduated from an accredited seminary], them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified, [and whom he glorified he gave the opportunity to kiss the Roman Catholic Pope’s ring and be super-glorified].

  130. Robert K. said,

    August 19, 2007 at 3:48 am

    The high intellectual of Federal Visionism…

    Leithart’s blog is hilarious. It’s like he’s thumbing through various encyclopedias and dictionaries and every once and awhile slaps down something into a post:

    “Most of England’s enclosure acts were passed between 1760 and 1815”

    “Following the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713, young English noblemen began traveling the continent in what became known as the Grand Tour.”

    “Chesterton admits that Dickens’s characters neither affect nor are affected by time”

    The above from three consecutive posts on his blog.

    He’s also got a recent post up there noting the correlation between Moses on Sinai and Jesus on the mountain giving his ‘sermon on the mount.’ The thing is he states the correlation as if he is the first theologian genius to see it. And, his Federal Vision students will actually think that. Because biblical insight begins with the Moscow, Idaho school.

    If they ever do begin to be able to see Federal Theology I can’t wait until we will all be inundated with their lecturing to us about it.

  131. August 19, 2007 at 4:23 am

    Grover Gunn said “When Steve added his qualifications, didn’t he simply add duration, final outcome and a mysterious unknown quality which causes the differing duration and final outcome? Is that correct? If so, do you think that is really adequate? He may have said more somewhere, but I haven’t seen it.

    I don’t regard the factor which makes the difference in duration and final outcome as unknown.”

    Bingo. A few comments:

    1. The “factor” should not be unknown. There are no ordo salutis benefits that accrue to the non-elect covenant member.

    2. For Wilkins to essentially say “the benefits are different in that they are different” is certainly insufficient. That answer is so profoundly weak, and not fitting for a minister of the Gospel who should be teaching God’s people with clarity.

    In systematic theology, we are often unable to describe the “why” and “how”s, so we do live with some mystery, but this does not give license to shrug off the “what”s and not even provide basic definitions of terms we use.

    3. This also indicates that Wilkins hasn’t really thought through all of his novel ideas related to his parallel ordo salutis. Sadly, even though he hasn’t thought it through he *has* seen fit to make an issue of it, disturb and disrupt the people of God, and dig his heels in upon rebuke from his peers.

    4. Also, a question – do words have no meaning until an FV writer “clarifies” their past writings upon examination? If I apply a historical-grammatical interpretation of Wilkins’ writings from 2002-2004 and conclude that those writings are not orthodox, then what is needed in 2006 under presbytery examination is not a “clarification” but rather a retraction and repentance.

    5. To put it more specifically, if Steve Wilkins was using various terms in non-standard ways (a non-Westminsterian/3FU way) from the normal sense that a Reformed audience would understand those terms, then he should have made clear the alternate definitions he was employing in that immediate context.

    6. Unfortunately, there is no realistic chance at this point of any real progress with FV advocates such as Wilkins. Any FV advocate admitting error at this point would simply lose too much face. There has already been too much digging in of heels, and for someone like Wilkins to accept the censure of the SJC would tarnish his trustworthiness as minister of the Word before their congregations. The FV response to criticism so far has demonstrated that the leading FV proponents are proud, proud men, and have furnished us with no compelling reason whatsoever for anyone to believe that they would make a necessary about-face.

  132. August 19, 2007 at 8:12 am

    I have yet to see the FV address the puzzling status of people they label NECM who DO NOT fall away from the visible church during their time on earth. They die in their profession and never committ apostacy.Having spent almost three decades as a pastor I have encounter scores of people who fall into this catagory. Our churches are full of people who have all the apearances of the Federal Vision’s NECM. They claim to be Christians and to some extent they would be entitled to the label ‘Evangelical’ according to the latest polling data of George Barna. But, the sad fact of the matter is, they know little if anything about the conviction of sin and repentance as displayed by Christian in Bunyan’s Pilgram’s Progress. They are preoccuppied with getting their felt needs met via the ‘ministry’ of the hottest cuting-edge mega-church (which has tucked away somewhere a nice summary of orthodox belief). They ‘acknowledge’ that they are sinners( people will readily admit to this, after all, we’ve all made mistakes,right?) and ‘accept Jesus’ into their hearts and even gladly summit to ‘Trinitarian’ baptism as practised by churches across the vast Evangelical landscape. They live their entire life in this context and never ‘fall away’. What about people like this? (like those whose earthly life is not described in terms of apostacy like those in Matt. 25:41-46 0r the ones mentioned in Matt. 7:22-23 who were religiously active?). Just wondering what the FV neat little catagory of NECM does here.

  133. Mark T. said,

    August 19, 2007 at 8:13 am

    Jared,

    Please notice that I buttressed my points of Wilson’s make-believe world with facts; you, however, have resorted to ad homs, which betrays your loyalty to your master. I commend you for faithfully bearing the image of Doug, but I encourage you to frame an actual argument so that I may respond. Otherwise, I urge you to stick to bank telling because the words “How may I help you” are much more becoming to a Christian.

    Dave H,

    I encourage you to inquire about Wilson’s qualifications in the same way you asked about Robert K’s. You might be surprised that the smartest man in the whole world has very little training.

    Thanks.

  134. August 19, 2007 at 8:31 am

    Doug
    Shucks, neither Dave Gadbois or myself made your list of ‘nice’ FV critics. And I thought we were sandbox buddies.I’ll try my best to console David.

  135. Robert K. said,

    August 19, 2007 at 8:46 am

    >”Ditto to what Pastor Wilson stated. Some have displayed a godly maturity and dignity in their posts, despite disagreements over issues; versus the unusually extreme approach which appears to be common to others. Obviously, it is easy to succumb to the temptation to rant when posting in such faceless forums (accomplishing nothing). I suppose that even the likes of Mr. (fill in the blank, on either side) would assume more of a civil nature if we were all sitting in a room together, discussing these matters. Friendships might mysteriously develop; and in other instances, cases of extreme blushing. Such things happen when Christians are in fellowship. But such is the blessing, and concurrent curse of the Internet. We’ve got to try just a little bit harder…”

    Then there’s the other side of it. Would Calvin have moderated his tone or changed the substance of his letter in response to Sadoleto if he were talking to him in person? Would that have been good in any way if he had? No, of course it wouldn’t have been good in any way. (Not to mention his Institutes.)

    With these Federal Vision clowns we are dealing with the equivalent of Jesuits pretending to be Calvinists. And they have all the honesty of Jesuits circa late 1500s. Talking to them in person would probably lead to a tar and feathering episode. Or, more likely the FVists would so pretend to not hold to what they hold to in print that no conversation along those lines would develop.

    Note well: FVists show shame in what they’re doing. Yes, deception is part of their tactic to attain their objective, but they also are showing a good degree of shame when they flit about here and there, pussy-footing around and avoiding explicitly stating their beliefs.

    I imagine in person they’d spend 99% of their time talking about beer, and you’d have to press them like a prosecutor to get them to just approach confessing to their FV doctrine, and by then you would, by default, be at the level of discourse they complain about on these blogs.

  136. Robert K. said,

    August 19, 2007 at 9:13 am

    And, of course, no Reformed person is saying to the FVists: you must believe what we believe. We know the Spirit is necessary to see the truth. What Reformed Christians are saying is: stop the deception of self-identifying as something you are not. This just causes empty mischief. For this reason the Federal Vision doesn’t even have the virtue of providing what positives false doctrine can potentially provide: an attack that necessitates you, and gives you the opportunity, to sharpen up on what you believe. The FV doesn’t even provide this because of this element of you pretending to be Reformed. It forces us to fight you off in a different manner. As one fights off traitors, spies, and terrorists. Fifth columnists. In other words, you are not honorable foes, you are contemptible foes. Notice your reluctance to recognize or admit a discernable battleline. You don’t want that because you couldn’t sustain a battle like that, so you want to fight insidiously from within. So we have to spend all our time and energy exposing you and your tactics rather than a more usual engagement. You know this. You’re not honorable, you’re contemptible.

  137. Robert K. said,

    August 19, 2007 at 9:23 am

    A SIDE ISSUE

    A problem with talking to someone like Doug Wilson who has developed ‘institutions’ is they have no room to maneuver. They can only justify and dig in. MacArthur and his dispensationalism comes to mind in this regard. Even if John MacArthur suddenly was able to see the nonsense in his dispensationalism he has about 800 publications and 40 other institutions and concerns that would be effected rather foundationally if he changed. They’ve thrown their lot in. Of course, what good is it to gain the world and lose your soul? I would advise all reading this to not start your own publishing house, at least not one with a ax to grind, other than the ax of the Reformation, which is the ax of apostolic biblical doctrine; and don’t start up any seminaries based on novel 19th century doctrine, or what have you. A Christian should pack light and tread the straight and narrow. Stick to the old paths.

  138. Robert K. said,

    August 19, 2007 at 10:32 am

    Doug Wilson’s got that 900 foot baptismal font with the 50 foot high letters spelling FEDERAL VISION that he’s erecting in Moscow, Idaho too, which mitigates against him ever coming off his doctrinal path…

  139. August 19, 2007 at 3:24 pm

    Gary, David Gadbois is great in that way too. I should have mentioned him. He has been a fruitful visitor at my blog as well. You are in something of a different category. Unlike RobertK, for example, you actually argue for your points. But like Robert, you are obviously cranked about the whole thing, and it really gets in the way. His animus overpowers what he is not saying; your animus overpowers what you are saying.

  140. August 19, 2007 at 3:27 pm

    And Gary, let me be the first to answer your question. NECMs who die in that condition, without ever being guilty of visible apostasy here, go to meet their their God outside the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and are thrown into Hell forever.

  141. August 19, 2007 at 3:36 pm

    Dean, thanks for the prompt on the questions I missed.

    From Pastor Keister #17
    “Doug, let me ask you this: do you think that Paul is using the word “dikaioo” in the same sense as James?”

    No, I don’t. There is obviously a great deal of overlap (they are both talking about sinners being put right with God), but I don’t think they are using the word with the same semantic range. The Pauline use has become, in Reformed circles, the technical use in our confessions. But we have to remember the other use is still in the Bible, which means that we should be able to use it ourselves (provided we explain what we are doing with all appropriate disclaimers).

    From myself #87
    “How does the WHOEVER in I Cor 11:27 not apply to the non-elect non-covenant members?” Context explained in #73 and additional clarification in #75.

    I think that Paul was assuming baptized members of the Church being guilty of this sin, and is where he addresses his instruction, but I do agree that if a outsider, a pagan, were to come to the Table, he would also be guilty of the body and blood of Christ. But the more light there is, the greater the sin. To whom much is given, much is required. The non-elect non-covenant member is guilty of profanation. The non-elect covenant member is guilty of spiritual adultery, a much more heinous sin.

  142. greenbaggins said,

    August 19, 2007 at 4:05 pm

    But James is not talking about how sinners are put right with God. He is talking about how someone could tell who is put right with God. It is the evidentiary use of “dikaioo,” not the declarative sense, which James is using. That being, said, I am encouraged to see you say that the difference lies primarily there in the semantic use of dikaioo, and not, as some others have done, in a different definition of works and faith.

  143. Dean Bekkering said,

    August 19, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    Pastor Wilson

    Thank you for your response. I agree with everything in your post.

    I will attempt to narrow the question even further to pick up the distinction I am driving at. (This arose out of your point on post #66)

    I believe in post 141 you acknowledged that the NENonCM and NECM both have “something” and this “something” makes them both guilty of the blood of Christ.

    Question:
    If I understand you correctly does the “something” (your meaning in post 66) they both (NENonCM and NECM) have differ only in the degree or does it differ in kind?

  144. jared said,

    August 19, 2007 at 4:37 pm

    MarkT,

    I would have offered a counter argument if you actually had presented an argument. But I understand the way that cults work, so I don’t expect a whole lot.

    kjsulli,

    To be honest, I don’t ever remember a sermon being preached about unfallen Adam. Scripture doesn’t give us a whole lot of information about him or the covenant he had with God. I think it is safe to say that all of their interactions were by grace, though, and I wouldn’t think that unfallen Adam would need grace to function in a saving manner as it does with post-fall Adam and us. I could turn your question around and ask where do the Scriptures ever teach that Adam would have been justified by works alone, but I already know your answer. Also, no one is saying that it is faith and works get you justification. Clearly the Reformed (and FV) position is that faith alone gets you justification. The problem here is that the biblical concept of faith includes works, so while it is faith that gets you justification, its faith of a certain kind; namely the kind that is accompanied by works, always.

    I can concede that Adam was not justified by “faith alone” as we understand the phrase in relation to our (post-fall) justification. I was wrong there, you called me on it and you are right. I’ve read back through the comments, looked up some Scripture, thought about it and you are right. I was equivocating without realizing it and I was stubbornly refusing to admit it. I’ve been thinking of it this way: unfallend Adam would’ve been justified by faith and works because the two cannot be properly seperated. Unfallen Adam, however, would’ve been justified by the works side of faith and works because it was his works that needed to be perfect(ed) according to the CoW. Post-fall Jared, however, is justified by the faith side of faith and works because his works are perfect(ed) already via Jesus. So, my faith (alone, apart from works) nets me justification whereas Adam’s works (alone, apart from faith) would have justified him. Now, obviously my faith will not be without works if it is genuine and unfallen Adam’s works would not be without faith, otherwise the works wouldn’t be genuine.

    I’ve come to a point in my theology, I think, where I don’t believe there are different types of grace (e.g. “common” and “special” and “irresistable” and whatever else) as far as God relates to man; rather, I think God’s grace functions differently depending on whether one is a sheep or a goat. In this way we can say that the invisibile church recieves the full outworking of grace resulting in redemption and we can say that the visible church recieves a progressive outworking of grace resulting in the redemption only of those who are members of the invisible church. In this schema, “special” grace isn’t qualitatively different from “common” grace (as if God has multiple types of grace He uses depending on the situation), rather “special” grace is a deeper grace than “common” grace. Is this a problematic formulation from a Reformed standpoint?

    As an aside, I’ve not seen a biblical definition of “faith” (Hebrew ’emunah’ and Greek ‘pisteuo’) in which “doing” or “activity” isn’t a part.

  145. August 19, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    Dean, if I understand your question, I believe the sin that the two men commit differs in kind, and not just in degree.

  146. Mark T. said,

    August 19, 2007 at 8:10 pm

    It just occurred to me that this stimulating and enlightening exchange on the FV has neglected to consider what I believe may be the most important category of individuals: the NECLDADAT (non-elect cult leaders drawing away disciples after themselves).

    Thank you.

  147. james raisch said,

    August 19, 2007 at 8:28 pm

    If a person has been saved, as God knows and not as man thinks he knows, he/she can think, say, and do whatever, good or evil, that he/she pleases to think, say, or do. Of course, his/her desire hopefully would be one of obedience, seeking to please the Father, seeking to imitate his/her older brother and Saviour(Jesus the Christ, God the Son). However, since this Christian is adopted, freed from a life of oppressive slavery to satan, there is going to be a learning curve as a new member of a loving (and perfectly at that, concerning the Father, Son, and Spirit) family. This Christian might (no, WILL) fail to live up to the standards of the God family perfectly. There is then, of course, also the possibility of falling into a backslidden, rebellious state as a Christian, much like the prodigal son spoken of in the Bible. But even if this happens (falling into a backslidden, rebellious state), this Christian is certain of remaining a member of God’s family, even if this Christian dies in his/her backslidden, rebellious state (as an example, the prodigal son dying in the pig sty rather than returning to his father’s home before dying). Could a true “justification by faith alone” Reformed Christian (this would exclude federal visionists AND federal visionist sympathizers and tolerators) comment on my comments?

    To clarify my first sentence (where I said the Christian is free to think, say, and do whatever he/she pleases, good or evil), it needs to be said that the good the Christian does is NEVER, NEVER, burt NEVER perfectly good, but rather always tainted, to some degree or another with imperfection (or better yet, let’s just say tainted by SIN).

  148. Dean Bekkering said,

    August 19, 2007 at 10:15 pm

    Pastor Wilson
    Your quote from 66 “It is that thing which makes it possible for non-elect covenant members to be guilty of the body and blood of Christ through their abuse of the Lord’s Supper —“
    WCF 29.8 can not be used as a proof passage to support your interpretation of Heb 10:29 and John 15:2. The WCF 29.8 begins with “ignorant and wicked men”. WCF 29.8 teaches that both of your subset (nonbeliever and NECM) are “guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.”
    Your desire to create a difference between the “blood of the Lord” and “blood of the covenant” is a problem. Your interpretation of “sanctified” and “in Christ” creates a class of people whose sins are different in kind than the sins of the NECM not different in degree.

    I submit to you Esau was “sanctified” and “in Christ”. Esau was set apart and was the in the visible manifestation of Christ’s body. Without having done any good or evil God hated Esau and did not have mercy on him. If God hated Esau and did not have mercy on him where did Esau’s faith, justification, and sanctification originate from?

    If Esau instantaneously had his sins taken away and Christ’s perfect obedience given to him (justified) in some sense then why did God take it back? What were the grounds for God to take it back since in some sense Esau was no longer under condemnation. When Esau was temporarily justified did God look down upon him with love for a time? How could God not look at him in love since Esau was in union with Christ? God hated Esau before he was born and on the basis of what did He temporarily love him? Did Christ only paid for some of Esau’s sins and only gave him some of His perfect obedience? Why not all? Was the perfect obedience instantaneous given to Esau or was it a process that would be finished with enough good works on Esau’s part?

    The next logical step on this path is to teach that Christ’s death was a partial universal atonement since all are guilty of the “blood of the Lord”. Would you draw the line and move on if Wilkins or Lusk proposed that it impossible for the reprobates to be “guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” if they all were not represented on the cross and at least participate in the atonement? Would you be satisfied if they simply qualified it by saying they participate in the atonement “in some sense” and assured you that the atonement the reprobates received was merely temporary and did not include efficacy, sealing, assurance, and security? Why not include a partial universal atonement or is that already implied when you say “union with Christ”? Would you be comfortable floating a covenantal atonement since the sins that are committed in the covenant and out of the covenant are different in kind not in degree?

    I am sure you have thought about these questions before. These are the questions that need a direct answer. The Joint Statement was minimally helpful because it did not solve any of these questions.

    Until these questions are answered it will be rather apparent to conclude the system of doctrine of the FV is contrary to the system of doctrine in the WCF. How can you honestly maintain the WCF does not address these issues and you can play in this NECM sandbox all you want? I believe it is possible by reading it though your FV lenses twist the WCF to prove your viewpoint like you attempted on 29.8.

    Please return back.

  149. kjsulli said,

    August 19, 2007 at 10:19 pm

    Jared, re: 144,

    I am happy to see that you have reconsidered your use of “faith alone” to describe how Adam would have received the promise of life. However, I think you still err in saying this:

    The problem here is that the biblical concept of faith includes works, so while it is faith that gets you justification, its faith of a certain kind;

    The biblical concept of faith EXCLUDES works. How else do you have Paul saying, “faith apart from works of the law“? This is something you have got to get straight. As I’ve said twice now, obedience is not constitutive of faith. I recognize, as do all orthodox Reformed believers, that works are a necessary and obligatory part of the life of a Christian. But those works do not make faith alive; it is a living faith that produces those works!

    Let me say that again, as it may help to clarify: works do not make faith alive; it is a living faith that produces works. Works are evidence of the livingness of faith, but they do not constitute faith’s livingness. Faith is alive because it rests on Christ alone. THAT is what constitutes a living faith. Because faith is alive, works WILL necessarily accompany it.

    As an aside, I’ve not seen a biblical definition of “faith” (Hebrew ‘emunah’ and Greek ‘pisteuo’) in which “doing” or “activity” isn’t a part.

    Well, faith is something that is done in the sense that the believer must believe/trust on God, and it is this belief/trust that is called “faith.” It is not, however, as it is frequently construed in contemporary evangelicalism, the ground of justification, so it is strictly without merit.

  150. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 1:55 am

    JARED STATES:
    >”Also, no one is saying that it is faith and works get you justification. Clearly the Reformed (and FV) position is that faith alone gets you justification. The problem here is that the biblical concept of faith includes works, so while it is faith that gets you justification, its faith of a certain kind; namely the kind that is accompanied by works, always.”

    Jared, you’re merely caught up in the FVists’ maze of garbage language. This is pretty much their entire program, introducing a maze of sophistic language (garbage language) sprouting off into numerous rabbit trails whenever they are discussing anything, and throwing in multiple definitions of terms while implying that Reformed doctrine is ignorant of how the Bible uses various words and phrases and so on to get away with their nonsense. Their net catches a myriad of types, some genuinely mislead, some looking for the latest home base that is attacking the truth.

    JARED STATES:
    >”Post-fall Jared, however, is justified by the faith side of faith and works because his works are perfect(ed) already via Jesus”

    One could answer such a statement technically, or practically. Practically, Jared, like the FVists (you do have this in common with them) you havn’t yet died to the law. You still think you’re in control. For you the law is the Beast. If it can get you to think you can do any good works at all as part of your salvation you are in the darkness and bondage of this world, the Beast system. God’s perfect law is to fallen man a distorted and perverted thing, always. Fallen man distorts and perverts God’s perfect law making of it hypocrisy, false piety, and moralism, not to mention the accompanying idolatry and man-fearing and man-centeredness.

    Technically speaking (regarding your quote above) your salvation has nothing to do with the perfecting of your works in any way. Saving faith is in the works of Jesus, His passive and active obedience. You’re missing the federal aspect of your situation. You fell ‘in Adam.’ You’re in Adam still right now as long as you think your works somehow play any role in your salvation. To be ‘in Christ’ you need the free graces of faith and repentance. Then going from acting from self-will to acting from God’s will will be the fruit of having the free grace of faith and the free grace of repentance, but it won’t have anything to do with your justification or salvation or becoming ‘in Christ’ rather than still being ‘in Adam.’

    There is false piety woven through your statements on these subjects, Jared. FVist teachers cultivate this in their approach. It backs up their rickety arguments. When the arguments from Scripture fail (or the curtain starts to be pulled back) they play the false piety card (“But surely you don’t think Adam could have merited anything from our great Holy God by his works? surely you’re not so arrogant a created being to think that?”).

    One big thing anyone who is going to have any chance of coming out of Federal Vision teaching needs to know is the four states of man.

    1. Man in the state of innocence, in the Garden.
    2. Fallen man in the state of total depravity.
    3. Regenerated man
    4. Glorified man

    #1 (Adam in the Garden) is not the same as #2. And #1 also is not the same as #4. Adam was still able to sin. Glorified man is no longer able to sin. This is important to know so that you can see that Adam had something to merit in the Covenant of Works. He didn’t yet have the eschatological state of glorification.

    Another way to see the four different states is regarding sin:

    1. Adam in the Garden: able to sin/able to not sin
    2. Fallen man: able to sin/unable to not sin
    3. Regenerated man: able to sin/able to not sin
    4. Glorified man: unable to sin

    You can see that when in the #2 state (fallen man) even your good works stink as filthy rags to God.

    #1 and #3 look similar, but in #1 Adam is in reliance on his own works (and he of course failed), and in #2 regenerated man relies on the perfect work of Jesus Christ and in this we already have the victory. “It is done.” #1 is in the Covenant of Works. #3 is in the Covenant of Grace. The Law assumes a being fully capable of performing the Law perfectly (as Adam was). The Gospel assumes a man dead in sin and fully incapable of performing the works of the law. Law and gospel are not equal in regards to our salvation.

    Once we recover fully the image of God within us (only at glorification is this to a perfect degree) we no more deviate from God’s perfect law than God does. It is in our heart, and it is what we are.

  151. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 6:19 am

    >”Gary, David Gadbois is great in that way too. I should have mentioned him. He has been a fruitful visitor at my blog as well. You are in something of a different category. Unlike RobertK, for example, you actually argue for your points. But like Robert, you are obviously cranked about the whole thing, and it really gets in the way. His animus overpowers what he is not saying; your animus overpowers what you are saying.”

    The words of a cult leader and biblical false teacher (and Reformed impersonator) pretending he is the mainstream, passing judgment on who is and who isn’t ‘ok’. Wilson, I’m going to moderate my language and simply say you are a fool.

    And David Gadbois has hardly been a ‘fruitful’ visitor to your amen-chorus blog. You ignore him like you ignore all other Reformed Christians who attempt to correct your poisonous doctrine and behaviour.

  152. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 6:44 am

    Up above I wrote:

    ____________________________________
    A NOTE ON THE LANGUAGE
    OF DOUG WILSON AND THE OTHER
    FEDERAL VISIONISTS

    Notice their use of language when discussing doctrine:

    I can be comfortable with that
    If this way of saying it is changed I will have less problem with it
    I can agree to that, even without the qualifications you mention
    That’s a point I can be won over on, perhaps
    I’ve said in the past I’d be willing to look that over again
    I I I I I
    etc., etc., etc.

    This is the language of the still man-centered, Old Man within still in control. This is the language of vanity, worldly pride, and self-will.

    Regenerate believers don’t talk like this regarding apostolic biblical doctrine. We are given ability by the Spirit to discern the truth and accept it, to know it, no ifs, ands, or buts. Because it wasn’t ‘us’ that agreed to anything. ‘We’ didn’t have to be ‘won over.’ I’ve had debates and arguments with Reformed doctrine, but as a student who was developing, not as a teacher or ’special catch’ dictating or demanding to be ‘won over.’
    _______________________________

    Doug W., is this comment/observation meaningful or convicting at all to you?

  153. August 20, 2007 at 8:23 am

    You might remember Doug that it did not start out that way. I made repeated attempts as a former friend of your and co-labor in the book “Whatever Happened to the Reformation?” to privately engage you on this and you had your assistant respond because you were ‘too busy’. Also, I have never resorted to the kind of inflamatory rhetoric that you and others have used in describing your critics as “ignorant and envious men” or “a pen of swine” to mention only a few such unpleasantries. Actually, the main reason I have gone out of my way to air my views on the problems I have with the FV is because of our prior association.I want it clearly understood where I stand. Your take on the issue I raised about non-apostastes NECM is once again very difficult to reconcile with the stated views of your fellow FVers who declare the what severes the ‘union’ and relationship NECM have Christ is the lack of perservance. But I have long given up trying to find rhyme and reason for the incoherent theology of the FV.

  154. August 20, 2007 at 8:48 am

    Dean, but Esau was circumcised. And I think the WCF is assuming the same kind of thing that Paul is in the Corinthians passage. In other words, the “universe of discourse” is that of baptized members of the church either using or abusing the Lord’s supper. But I think both Paul and the divines would say that a non-baptized individual who snuck into church and took the Supper was profaning the Lord’s body and blood also. The question then becomes is this sin different in degree or in kind. How about both? Fornication and adultery are the same kind of sin. But adultery is different in kind because it is sin against an existing covenant relationship. That is the kind of thing I mean here. The unbelieving covenant member is an adulterer. The unbelieving non-covenant member is a fornicator.

  155. August 20, 2007 at 8:52 am

    And RobertK, the only reason I have not added my request to the requests of others to have Lane police your comments better is that it is not my position you are disgracing.

  156. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 9:01 am

    Wilson, you’re a joke. You talk like you’re a pillar of the Reformed faith. What does that say about all the bodies that have rebuked your age-old Romanist poison? I believe you FVists call them ‘idiots.’

    And again: did my comment about your language trigger any self-reflection on your part? I guess by your non-answer that would have to be no. Once again, level of honesty, level of self-awareness: minus zero.

  157. Mark T. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 9:12 am

    I think that Robert K makes some good points, including #152. However, I believe that he missed the most glaring point in all of Wilson’s comments (though he came close). Robert notes that Wilson’s language is “man centered,” which is true; but it’s much worse than that. Wilson’s language is Wilson centered, i.e. he has placed himself as the final arbiter of all things: “I can be comfortable with that. . . If this way of saying it is changed I will have less problem with it. . . I can agree to that. . . That’s a point I can be won over on. . . I’ve said in the past I’d be willing to look that over again. . .”

    First, where is this man’s credibility and, more importantly, who cares what he believes? The man is a scoundrel.

    Finally, after reading Gary’s latest comment, and in the spirit of name calling fostered by the FVers, I want to add another category of individuals to this discussion: RATs (Reprobate Apostate Teachers).

    Thank you.

  158. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 9:20 am

    He does bring the ‘me generation’ to doctrine is a rather big way…

  159. Dean said,

    August 20, 2007 at 9:49 am

    Pastor Wilson

    Thank you for the clarification between what you meant by different kind. Why does God still holds the fornicator guilty of the body and blood of the Lord?

    This clarification does not eliminate one concern that I address in the second half of my post in 144. The second half of the post to me is the heart of the issue. Until you provide biblical answers to those questions I will consider the FV to be unconfessional. All of these other questions (different kind) are just a prelude to those questions.

    Thank you for your time.

  160. tim prussic said,

    August 20, 2007 at 11:20 am

    Pastor Wilson (post 155) – bobbyk *does* disgrace himself and he calls himself Christian and Reformed. Now, I have no reason to doubt that he’s both (the latter to a lesser degree), but I know his unsavory actions and words disgrace whatever he links himself to.

    bobbyk, you’re right that Mr. Calvin wouldn’t have changed either the substance or tone of his address with that wascally Cardinal, for he had the substance of a scholar and the tone of a gentleman (even in an age when abusive rhetoric was widely accepted and practiced). You, however, (not touching your scholarship) have not the tone of a gentleman in ANY disagreement, so far as I can tell. To compare yourself to Calvin, therefore, is sadly amusing.

    Mr. Johnson (pastor? doctor?), regarding your post 132 to Pastor Wilson: how is that problem a FV problem in particular? NECMs unmanifested are what they are and will be judged accordingly. God knows who are his and let all who name the name of Yahweh depart from iniquity. If those who name his name and who appear to depart from iniquity are not God’s, he knows it and will make that manifest in the end. Am I missing something?

  161. Bryan Cross said,

    August 20, 2007 at 11:27 am

    Mark T,

    In #157 you wrote:

    Wilson’s language is Wilson centered, i.e. he has placed himself as the final arbiter of all things: “I can be comfortable with that. . . If this way of saying it is changed I will have less problem with it. . . I can agree to that. . . That’s a point I can be won over on. . . I’ve said in the past I’d be willing to look that over again. . .”

    How does that differ from Luther’s claims both to Cajetan and before the Diet of Worms, where he said, “Why may not a worm like me ask to be convicted of error from the prophets and the Gospels? If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. …Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason — I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other — my conscience is captive to the Word of God.”

    in the peace of Christ,

    – Bryan

  162. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 11:44 am

    >”wascally Cardinal”

    A messenger of death attempting to take an entire city into spiritual bondage to the devil is termed ‘wascally’ by this FV Jesuit-in-training-wheels. Some day, when you learn what is at stake, you’ll get down on your knees and ask God to forgive you.

    By the way, your comment gave away you’ve never read the Institutes.

    BRYAN CROSS ASKS:
    >”How does that [Doug Wilson’s language] differ from Luther’s claims both to Cajetan and before the Diet of Worms”

    No, FVism is not a cult. No…

  163. jared said,

    August 20, 2007 at 12:27 pm

    Robert K.,

    Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand! And stop cluttering up Lane’s blog until you do…

    kjsulli,

    Thanks for the continued dialogue.

    I think Paul is saying that the works which accompany faith (which are an essential part of what genuine faith is) are not the ground of our justification. I agree with you that it is the living faith which produces works; no other kind of faith can do so. I do not believe that any works produced by my faith contribute to my justification and I don’t think that’s what FV is teaching on this point. But I do believe that if my faith does not produce works, then it is not genuine faith. I agree with you that works don’t make faith alive but a faith without works is clearly not alive. The fact that works aren’t what makes faith living does not imply or necessitate that faith excludes works.

    You say, “Well, faith is something that is done in the sense that the believer must believe/trust on God, and it is this belief/trust that is called “faith.” It is not, however, as it is frequently construed in contemporary evangelicalism, the ground of justification, so it is strictly without merit.” Okay, how does this prove that faith excludes works? Paul says it’s faith that justifies you apart from the works of the law. Right, justification is based completely on the finished work Jesus (which, technically isn’t finished until we’re glorified, but that’s neither here nor there), received by grace through faith and not by works. How does any of that demonstrate that works are not a part of faith? What it demonstrates is that faith’s works don’t contribute our justification. Emunah and pisteuo aren’t simply a believing/trusting. I completely agree that we do not merit justification and that our faith isn’t a “work” that gets us justified.

  164. tim prussic said,

    August 20, 2007 at 12:40 pm

    obby, wascally, wascally, wascally – I’m tellin’ you that Cardnow was one wascally dewd…

    “…your comment gave away you’ve never read the Institutes.”
    obby, seriously? Ya know, we were not talking about Mr. Calvin’s tone in the Institutes (or sermons, other letter, love notes to Idelette, nor his prosecution notes on Servetus), but in his little letter to the wascally guy. Remember, you brought it up, specifically? Focus, here, fellas.

  165. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 1:05 pm

    >”obby, seriously? Ya know, we were not talking about Mr. Calvin’s tone in the Institutes (or sermons, other letter, love notes to Idelette, nor his prosecution notes on Servetus), but in his little letter to the wascally guy. Remember, you brought it up, specifically? Focus, here, fellas.”

    At last mention of the Calvin/Sadoleto exchange you stated you hadn’t read it. I suspect you’ve now only gotten past Calvin’s initial boilerplate, formal, and irony laden, overtures to the demon before wiping him up off the floor. As the bloggers say: read the whole thing. And he doesn’t have to call him a filthy dog to be carving him up. And, yes, I know you’ll take this as even more of an assault on your respectable self and it will no doubt turn you more to the devil’s doctrine and all that…

  166. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 1:07 pm

    Jared, I’m seeing progress. Why don’t you just go all out and, like, make Berkhof and Owen and Calvin himself your teachers. I mean, why settle for plastic when you can have silver and gold.

  167. jared said,

    August 20, 2007 at 1:22 pm

    Robert K.,

    If you’re seeing progress then I need to run the opposite direction.

  168. tim prussic said,

    August 20, 2007 at 1:23 pm

    obbles, I read it.

    His tone is day-and-night from your own. Also, as mentioned before, the sixteenth century isn’t known as an age of civil discourse, but you make Calvin look like sugar & spice & everything nice.

    One major difference – Calvin, in his fair but firm tone, is WAY more effective than your unhappy ranting and name calling. That’s the honest truth. Ranting only impresses those who already agree. It just puts everyone else off. I mentioned the same to another blogger recently and was told to “deal with it.” So be it… we’ll all wade through the pooey to get to the beneficial disucssion, and wish that it weren’t so.

  169. greenbaggins said,

    August 20, 2007 at 1:44 pm

    Listen folks. I am sick and tired of talking about tone all the time. I would exhort Robert K to be a bit more moderate in his tone. You can still call a particular doctrine heretical without necessarily trashing everything other people say (not that you trash everything everyone else says). To all those offended by Robert K, are you going to let tone dictate whether or not he has good points or not? ILLOGICAL! I have seen several (including Wilson) say that because the tone was harsh, therefore Robert doesn’t have a shred of logic worth addressing. Not a valid argument, folks. In the midst of (admittedly) harsh tone, there have been many good points in Robert’s posts that FV sympathizers have not seen fit to answer because they don’t like the tone in which it was addressed. Furthermore, because some of his posts are harsh does not mean all of them are. There have been many, many times already where people have jumped on Robert for what was not really harsh at all. You guys are so gun-shy that you can’t listen to him anymore. Robert, I would have emailed you about this, but the email you put on my blog doesn’t work.

  170. Mark T. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 1:58 pm

    Bryan,

    Please notice that in all of Wilson’s quotations, he made himself the final point of reference — the ultimate authority — on these matters. Luther, however, cited Scripture and reason as his final rule of authority, which is a lesson that the FVers should learn. Some of their assertions are neither Scriptural nor reasonable, while they themselves are completely unreasonable.

    Lane,

    I agree with you 100% about Robert, and I said so in one of my comments. He has good arguments that incite the ad homs, a sure sign that the FVers have no answer. And I would add that if someone went on Wilson’s blog and treated him as he treats others, Wilson would throw him out faster than you can say hypocrite. With all his contradictions and misrepresentations, I cannot understand why anyone takes him seriously, let alone gives him the time of day.

  171. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 2:10 pm

    Thanks for the comment, Green Baggins. I’ll not weary the board any more with the “clown” and “fool” language. I think what sets me off regarding the FVists is they remind me of this new generation of Roman Catholic apologists where they argue their unbiblical doctrine from Scripture with a shamelessness they havn’t had before. I forget who, it may have been James White, but someone was noting this on their blog recently. I obviously see FV doctrine as age old Romanist cow worship. But the connection really is this: when a Romanist argues from Scripture he is saying I will out Protestant you. This is what the FVists are saying to Reformed/Calvinist Christians: “We are the true heirs of the true Reformation, and looky here, the true doctrine of the true Reformation just *happens* to be Roman Catholicish! Ahh, you’re upset! Sorry!” Trolls pushing deady doctrine. Then their merry-go-round never ends because they have no shame. If the apostle Paul came back to rebuke them they’d say “Are you Jesus?” If Jesus Himself came back to rebuke them… Wait a minute, when Jesus comes back the game playing ends.

    I was just reading a Brakel on baptismal regeneration. These FVists have to say Brakel was not Reformed. Not to mention Brakel is one of the many great Reformed theologians who stated the church rises and falls on the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Wilson out of one side of his mouth will state “Brakel was gloriously reformed” and probably add “you betcha!” giving confidence of his sincerity. Then out of the other side of his mouth he’ll state that “Reformed” is not enough, implying that “Reformed” means things like calling yourself Reformed while not believing baptism regenerates or works are necessary for salvation, etc., etc.

  172. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    Mark T, those examples of Wilson’s (and the other FVists) language I put together weren’t direct quotes (I didn’t put them in quote marks) but were meant to imitate how they talk. You could probably go to the examination of Wilson by his own church to find every one of my examples, but I meant to imitate Wilson and some of the other prominent FVists, and I don’t think he or anyone else could quibble with the accuracy of the imitation.

  173. tim prussic said,

    August 20, 2007 at 3:42 pm

    Mark T., I’m sure that post 171 is a prime example of “good arguments that incite the ad homs, a sure sign that the FVers have no answer.” So far as any argument to be found in that whole post, it seems to be this: “Wilson calls a Brakel gloriously reformed; I just read of his stuff; Wilson’s wrong, wrong, wrong!” That’s a whopper of an argument, alright…

    bobbley, what is necessary for salvation?

  174. tim prussic said,

    August 20, 2007 at 3:45 pm

    Usually when a man expresses what HE thinks the Bible says, he’ll say things like: “It seems to me…,” “I understand this to mean…,” or “I believe….”
    If that’s interpreted as “man centeredness,” then I guess the the Apostles’ Creed’s man centered, no? …credo… credo … credo… Sounds like ROMANISM!

  175. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 4:15 pm

    Tim (notice I write your name, I’ve been exhorted not to do too much harm to your apparently fragile psyche, so I’ll not do any variations on the theme of your given name and surname)…apparently you can’t discern it now, but there is a difference between saying “I believe or I think” and language that is very much a give away of a juvenile, vain, man-centered approach to biblical doctrine. The juvenile vain approach basically considers themselves to be special prizes that have to be won over. And to use a C. S. Lewis phrase, they put God in the dock. They judge God. They judge God’s doctrine. I know it seems a subtle thing, but it’s really not when you have discernment for such things.

    I really think the case is that you saw your FV teachers convicted in my comment. Have some honesty when you see such a thing, Tim. It’s called conscience.

  176. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 4:24 pm

    >”So far as any argument to be found in that whole post, it seems to be this: “Wilson calls a Brakel gloriously reformed; I just read of his stuff; Wilson’s wrong, wrong, wrong!” That’s a whopper of an argument, alright…”

    This is very confused and dishonest, Tim. Wilson in fact stated Reformed theologians like a Brakel (I’ve owned his magnum opus for years, by the way) were not Reformed because they disagreed with such things as Wilson’s view of baptismal regeneration. Then Wilson protested all the Reformed theologians I mentioned were indeed Reformed (thanks, Doug, Christians the world over breathe a sigh of relief, our libraries are Doug-approved). But we are left to suppose he means “Reformed” rather than Reformed. He couldn’t blatantly say Boston, Brown, Brakel, Berkhof (and I’m only in the ‘B’s, Tim) weren’t reformed, but he does say that. When pinned on it he can’t say it because it makes him look like he’s got difficulty sifting reality.

  177. jared said,

    August 20, 2007 at 4:29 pm

    Lane,

    Would you mind noting a few of Robert’s good points out? It’s hard to wade through the rest of his delusional content and you have obviously been successful in your endeavor to do so. I would go back through them all again myself but apparently in my unregenerate FVistic idiocy I am not capable of recognizing them.

  178. greenbaggins said,

    August 20, 2007 at 4:42 pm

    Well, Robert’s point about Reformed theologians in 176 is outstanding (48 and 108 make the same point), 52 is in no way acerbic, and was in no way answered; 84 on biblical theology is quite cogent; 136 has an important point; 137 has it pegged exactly right (I said the same thing in my post on ego, repentance and the FV, see the index), and that’s just in this thread.

  179. tim prussic said,

    August 20, 2007 at 5:05 pm

    Mr. K., you can’t believe without thinking, can you? You’re pickin’ gnat pooey outta pepper on that one. Can’t a man say he thinks thus and such without being accused of romanism and whatever else? sheesh…

    On the other hand, I do appreciate you caring for my fragile psyche… too few do! *HUGS*

    Ok, so you’ve owned a Brakel for a long time. That is excellent. I’ll suppose you’ve read him through and through. That is also excellent. If a man disagrees with a Brakel does that necessarily make him not Reformed? I’m not trying to be dishonest (in fact, I try NOT to be so!), but your arguments here seem quite unsound. Pastor Lane thinks your point in 176 is outstanding, but I can’t see where it’s hits the mark at all. The absolute most you could argue is that Pastor Wilson differs at point X, Y, Z from certain Reformed theologians. You’re saying, however, as great deal more. You assert that he’s not Reformed, as if a Brakel (along with the rest of the Bs, and every other letter) defined in detail what it is to be Reformed. Typically, a man’s system of doctrine is measured against a system of doctrine… that’s where the Reformed symbols come in.

    Now, in all fairness, you might argue (and probably do) that Pastor Wilson’s system of doctrine differs widely from, say, the WS. If that can be proven, then I think it’d be fair to say that Pastor Wilson’s not Reformed.
    What I think you’ve done is 1) assert Pastor Wilson teaches baptismal regeneration, 2) pull together a handful of name of Reformed divines, 3) assert that Pastor Wilson differs from them, and 4) conclude that Pastor Wilson’s not Reformed. How that’s an outstanding point, I just cannot see. If you would substantiate Wilson’s doctrine of baptismal regeneration and contrast with with men like a Brakel, I’d be quite interested. But you have not even done that much.

    I hope that’s enough to show that I’m not trying to be dishonest, though I maybe confused…that’s always a possibility.

  180. greenbaggins said,

    August 20, 2007 at 5:21 pm

    Actually, Robert’s point was that Wilson is going to have to call a’Brakel unReformed, if he insists on his view of baptismal regeneration.

  181. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 5:52 pm

    I suppose I don’t feel inspired to write a comparison of a Brakel and Wilson on such a thing a baptismal regeneration because such things have kind of been settled. Wilson (and his type) has an invested interest in pretending such things are still to be determined. This is where his ‘disingenuous bewilderment’ comes into service for him. He pretends bewilderment that any Reformed Christians would question that such a topic isn’t still alive. The same for such doctrine as justification by faith alone. As if resurrecting Romanist sophistry to bring off the bottom of the ocean the leaky vessel of works righteousness is something that can be pretended is still a viable, living debate in Reformed Theology.

    Working for Wilson and the FVists on their side is what anybody with bad ideas always have on their side: the fact that people are being born every minute and tend to not get educated (or educate themselves) in what has occurred in the past. Even the recent past.

    But Wilson and the FVists want to play this game even with people who they know know better. Yes, they want to pretend to be ‘on a level playing field’ with people who make their living knowing biblical doctrine and even the history of biblical doctrine. And they want to make this putsch behind an offensive line of sophistic language. They learned how to do this at the secular academy. Not long ago no one would think some professor would start a campaign to assert Shakespeare was a worthless influence, or at least only the equal of any modern day writer (or substitute Homer or Chaucer or what have you for Shakespeare), but it’s happened. Anything can be debased if you do it at the level of language. All you need is people in places they shouldn’t be reaching a level of personal shamelessness to where they just do it. These same types are now doing the same thing with Reformed doctrine. Attempting it anyway.

    There are people who have no respect for anyone or anything other than their own – usually perverse – interests, and these are people you can’t debate or discuss anything with, you can only keep a wary eye on them.

  182. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 5:56 pm

    Thanks for the kind review of those comments, Green Baggins…

  183. kjsulli said,

    August 20, 2007 at 6:28 pm

    Jared, re: 163,

    I think Paul is saying that the works which accompany faith (which are an essential part of what genuine faith is)

    What you give with one hand you take back with the other. Either works “accompany” faith, or they are “an essential part of” faith. You cannot have it both ways. To say that works “accompany” faith already implies that works are something separate from faith, and that faith excludes works. Perhaps this seems like nitpicking. But as the phrase goes, “the devil is in the details.”

    So let me ask you directly: are works in any way constitutive of faith?

    Okay, how does this prove that faith excludes works?

    It wasn’t meant to. I was answering your question regarding the “doing” or “action” of faith.

  184. Mark T. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    Tim,

    I see your point about comment 171, which compels me to write the following note to Robert K.

    Dear Robert K.,

    I have appreciated most of your comments, however, I do have three criticisms for your consideration.

    First, you assume too much of your reading audience, which is a mistake. While I have the ability to fill in some of your missing premises, others do not. And since the goal is to convince your readers, I urge you to take a little more time framing your sentences so that your readers don’t have any blanks that need filling. When you write, think of yourself as putting together a paint-by-numbers kit for the blind. This way no one will say, “Huh, what’s he talking about?” when you reference one of Wilson’s many fantastic representations and compare it with a real-life theologian whose ministry isn’t scandal ridden.

    Second, I urge you to tone it down — especially the digs — because personal shots will only alienate those whom you wish to win. Yes, you are funny but, no, funny does not always mean that you’re on the high road. That said, this rule only applies to Wilson’s toadies. Even though they come off like blithering idiots who can’t think for themselves, they know when someone takes a shot at them and, like anyone else, they take it personal. That said, the false teachers are fair game, though you should temper your cracks. Don’t blow all your capital in each post. String together cogent posts sans zingers to establish credibility, and then put up a post or two with all the mustard dripping out the roll. No one will misunderstand you.

    Third, take thirty seconds to do a spell check before you post. It will enhance your credibility.

    Thanks for listening and thanks for your input.

  185. tim prussic said,

    August 20, 2007 at 6:46 pm

    Pastor Lane & Mr. K., it don’t matter if we hold Wilson’s view or a Brakel’s view as normative. My critique is the same: neither’s view is the standard for what’s “Reformed.” Wilson’s got no business calling a Brakel “not Reformed” merely because he differs at point X, Y, or Z. Now, in Pastor Wilson’s favor, he calls a Brakel gloriously Reformed, even though he may differ. Mr. K. can’t respond in kind.

    Mr. K., where’s the essay/book/lecture/anything comparing Wilson and a Brakel? You say “such things have kind of been settled.” Where have they “kind of” been settled. Once again, assertion, assertion, assertion…. More of the same hard-hitting arguments.

  186. tim prussic said,

    August 20, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    Mr. T – ad hom.. ad hom.. ad hom… is that really all you got?
    …and by the way, regarding your second point: Mr. K isn’t funny and he doesn’t try to be funny. That’s part of the problem.

  187. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 6:55 pm

    >”Third, take thirty seconds to do a spell check before you post. It will enhance your credibility.”

    That one hurt. Actually, since I’ve switched to Firefox I have automatic spell check as I go along. What have I misspelled? Look at #181. That is a longish comment. I don’t think there’s one misspelled word in it. I don’t accept this particular criticism!

  188. tim prussic said,

    August 20, 2007 at 6:58 pm

    If a spell check build Mr. T’s credibility in men and their ideas… he’s got two other things comin’.

  189. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 7:00 pm

    >”Mr. K., where’s the essay/book/lecture/anything comparing Wilson and a Brakel? You say “such things have kind of been settled.” Where have they “kind of” been settled.”

    By ‘things’ I was of course referring to ‘baptismal regeneration’ not Brakel’s view of it vs. Wilson’s. (Are you serious when you elevate Wilson like that, by the way?)

  190. tim prussic said,

    August 20, 2007 at 7:15 pm

    Mr. K., I wasn’t really speaking of the relative historical value or power of either man. I was just asserting that neither is a standard for what is Reformed. I think the symbols are used for such things. That’s all.

    Do you think Pastor Wilson’s espoused some Lutheran-like doctrine of baptismal regerantion, anyway? I haven’t seen it in him. I’ve seen strange stuff in Pastor Lusk, but not Pastor Wilson.

  191. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 7:37 pm

    I agree with Mark T.’s other criticisms though. Actually, though, you should see me go soft even on Roman Catholics when I hear a passing reference of some Christian who is said to be a devout Roman Catholic. The Christian in me feels instant camaraderie towards a fellow Christian, but it’s easy to see what is going on there: I don’t feel the same camaraderie towards the clerical hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church. I really don’t. Maybe nuns working in a hospital or something like that. I know what tyranny Rome is capable of. It’s like Islam, all peace, peace peace when not in power, but a different story when it gets the upper hand.

    We Calvinists can be seen to be too intellectual and opponents (and even perhaps some self-described fellow Calvinists) are tempted to see us as not having a practical connection to the doctrinal formulas (and the specific language of the doctrinal formulas) we so carefully defend, but what is happening there is this: some of us do and some of us don’t, but even those of us who don’t are operating on the basis of if the Bible says it we shall believe it, and even in that there is practical result regarding faith and repentance and our will. But as a Calvinist develops the doctrine is seen internally in ourselves and it’s seen externally in the world in a more and more practical and non-abstract way.

    John Owen has a quote about doctrine and how it becomes what we are. I can’t recall it now.

  192. Mark T. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 8:13 pm

    Tim,

    Since I was not writing to you, I did not expect you to follow me; therefore, please show me the ad homs and I will gladly explain them.

    Thanks.

    PS: Some of Robert K’s posts are hilarious.

  193. Dave H said,

    August 20, 2007 at 8:17 pm

    #162 (from Pastor Lane) – “To all those offended by Robert K, are you going to let tone dictate whether or not he has good points or not? ILLOGICAL! ”
    #182 (from Robert) – “Thanks for the kind review of those comments, Green Baggins…”

    Wow! It goes way beyond “tone”!
    Two comments: I think I now know why Robert wouldn’t respond to my question on #38 and #42 as to who “Robert K” really is and what makes him “tick.” He’s got to be a relative of Pastor Lane for that kind of endorsement. C’mon. Fess up, guys.

    Next, can I try an experiment? If this blog post makes it all the way to 200, I’ll post the most cuss-filled, filthy, crass but logical and theologically sound post I’ve ever hit the ENTER button on. If it’s logical, I request that you not delete it, despite who may possibly be offended.

    Let the countdown begin…

    (and BTW, I think there may be other reasons why Robert K’s e-mail “doesn’t work.”

  194. Mark T. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 8:25 pm

    Dave H,

    I urge you to investigate Wilson’s background and ministerial training just as you did Robert’s. If anything, it will move you to write the “most cuss-filled, filthy, crass but logical and theologically sound post” you’ve ever written. He is nothing more than a popular storyteller, an expert sophist, and a moral vacuum.

  195. tim prussic said,

    August 20, 2007 at 8:36 pm

    Mr. T., I interpreted your post # 184 as a slightly veiled attack on me! As I don’t spell check anything on blogs, often leave out words, and the like. Sorry… not ad homs! Just confusion.

  196. tim prussic said,

    August 20, 2007 at 8:37 pm

    Dave, I’m into seein’ a theologically sound cussin’. Since this is post 196, I think I’ll be pleased/shocked when I get back home tonight!
    Off to make millions.

  197. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 8:43 pm

    >”He is nothing more than a popular storyteller, an expert sophist, and a moral vacuum.”

    Well…that’s a little harsh. As the unabomber said in that Saturday Night Live sketch: “OK, take a deep breath…”

    Actually it’s dead on. And if he just quit trying to kidnap historic confessions he’d have less reason for the sophistry and the conscienceless behaviour…

  198. pduggie said,

    August 20, 2007 at 8:43 pm

    Robert’s tone is a problem, but also that 80% of his posts are mere reiterations of his assertions (not arguments) that the FV is bad bad bad, and the people who are thinking its worthwhile are morons. That’s not really a logical point to argue, its an assertion.

  199. pduggie said,

    August 20, 2007 at 8:46 pm

    The other thing is, (now that we know Robert K’s email is FAKE) is that robert probably is an FV advocate posing as a fv hatin troll. It would explain alot, trying to gain sympathy for the FV by attacking it like a maniac. I hope Mark Horne didn’t go off the deep end and do that.

    But I’ll just assume Robert is a double-agent for now. Unless he puts up and IDs himself

  200. Robert K. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 9:03 pm

    >”Mr. K., I wasn’t really speaking of the relative historical value or power of either man. I was just asserting that neither is a standard for what is Reformed. I think the symbols are used for such things. That’s all.”

    Well, in that Brakel can be fairly said to generally represent historically and doctrinally the Dutch Second Reformation he stands as a much more legitimate standard for Reformed Theology than Doug Wilson.

    >”Do you think Pastor Wilson’s espoused some Lutheran-like doctrine of baptismal regerantion, anyway? I haven’t seen it in him. I’ve seen strange stuff in Pastor Lusk, but not Pastor Wilson.”

    I don’t really care because he just wants to play games with language and draw attention to himself. He’s written enough though and said enough to let on what his motives and demands are. People don’t call themselves ‘Federal Vision’ because they are classically grounded Covenant/Federal theologians.

  201. Mark T. said,

    August 20, 2007 at 9:08 pm

    In honor of comment #200, let’s all do a full-frontal group hug to celebrate a kinder, gentler Robert K!

  202. jared said,

    August 21, 2007 at 1:45 am

    Lane,

    Thanks, I’ll get to working on those for you.

    kjsulli,

    What do you mean by “constitutive”? The biblical concept of faith presumes continuance of belief. That is, faith cannot properly be separated from faithfulness. If you have faith, then you are faithful. I think we must keep in mind that Paul’s understanding of “faith” is not Western (i.e. it is not Greek, Platonic, Aristotelian, Philo-istic, etc.) and that if we want to know Paul’s use of the term we need to be famliar with its Hebrew roots. “Emunah” is a stead-fast resilience, an unwavering trust and reliance. We are first introduced to the term when God establishes his covenant with Abraham in Gen 15. That famous verse (6), which we all know so well, follows from God having just promised that Abraham’s seed will be as numerous as the stars in the sky. This is the cornerstone on which Paul’s thinking about “faith” is founded. It is certainly not alone because Abraham goes on to ask “how will I know?” and God proceeds to tell him what he must do. It is important to note here that Abraham’s belief is counted as righteousness even before he has done anything; Paul is all over this in Galatians 3. The sort of faith that Moses attributes to Abraham here is the sort of faith exhibited throughout Abraham’s. In the Jewish mind, faith and faithfulness cannot be properly separated. The whole point of the Torah was for the education and preservation of one’s faith(fulness). Paul says in Galatians that the law was a tutor to lead them to Christ so that they could be justified by faith. Well, what was it that the law taught? Faithfulness!

    It occurs to me that there is confusion between faith/faithfulness and faith/works. When I say “faith and works” I don’t mean “faith and the Law”. I certainly think you can separate faith and the Law but I don’t think “law” and “works” are synonymous. Galatians, we can see, is the very Jewish foundation upon which Romans is built as far as faith and justification are concerned. So to answer your question, I don’t think that Law is constitutive of faith; but I don’t see how this prevents works (that is, faithfulness) from being a necessary component of biblical faith. When James says man is justified by works and not by faith alone this is precisely what he means. He is not attributing any sort of merit to the works we do, he is explaining what faithfulness is. He even quotes that same above passage in Genesis that Paul quotes so often to prove his point. Abraham’s faith is shown (or is perfected, as James says) by his faithfulness. James and Galatians are kindred epistles in this regard; faith is that by which a man is justified and faithfulness is the mark of genuine faith. Not only are we justified by faith but we are also made righteous by faith. Neither righteousness or justification can come by the Law, only by faith. And by faith we live and walk; it is the living and walking that I mean by “works.” With this qualification I do believe that works are constitutive of faith because it is not so constituted then it is not faith or, rather, it is dead faith. All of this can be simplified by saying that faith isn’t a noun. Because it’s not a noun it can’t be alone in that vaccuum sense you seem to be holding, but it can be alone as that which justfies us and makes us righteous. Sola Fide isn’t “faith (noun) alone”, it’s “faith (verb) alone” and that’s what I mean when I say faith and works. When you say faith excludes works, if you mean “law” or “merit” by “works” then I agree. When you say faith excludes works, if you mean “faithfulness” by “works” then I disagree with you (and so does the entire Bible).

    I can, more clearly now (I think), see how the FV is being charged with adding works to salvation…

  203. August 21, 2007 at 7:49 am

    #131 Mr Gadbois in your point 4 it is my understanding that FV defenders are disinclined towards historical-grammatical interpretations?

    Also, ISTM that the role of reason in interpretation of meaning is downplayed in exegesis. There is a reaction to a strawman of reason where reason = rationalism (test for truth) while throwing out the necessity of reason in determining meaning with meaning being more basic than truth. I think this is the heart of ambiguous language which allows for much confusion and also saying if Scripture is unclear you let that unclear part have a place equal to much clearer parts.

    Just thinking here as I make sense of these issues.

  204. tim prussic said,

    August 21, 2007 at 10:00 am

    Beth, I think you’re getting at something in post 203. I’ve heard Pastor Schlissel imply that a well-reasoned systematic theology is basically rationalism. I don’t think that’s the case with all the FV gents. If reason = rationalism and we’re to avoid rationalism, then thought and discourse become quite difficult, no?

    Mr. K., re: #200 – Why’s the Dutch Second Generation any more important than the First Muscovite Generation? Historically, it’s more important because it’s more distant. I think that’s somewhat true, but it’s very now-centered analysis. Will Pastor Wilson prove to be more seminal than a Brakel in time. You say NO!, but who really has any idea. Them’s small potatoes.

    This statement reveals, I think, how your mind works: “I don’t really care because he just wants to play games with language and draw attention to himself. He’s written enough though and said enough to let on what his motives and demands are. People don’t call themselves ‘Federal Vision’ because they are classically grounded Covenant/Federal theologians.”

    The way that reads, Mr. K., is “I don’t care what the man says, cuz I know what he is.”

    “Say, Mr. K.,” asks an inquiring mind, “does Pastor Wilson teach X?”

    “I don’t really care what he teaches or says. A teacher’s value and truth are not based upon what he teaches,” replies Mr. K., “they’re based on MY analysis of his heart.”

    …once again, no argument here.

  205. Robert K. said,

    August 21, 2007 at 10:24 am

    >”Why’s the Dutch Second Generation any more important than the First Muscovite Generation?”

    Dutch Second Reformation. Nadere Reformatie.

  206. tim prussic said,

    August 21, 2007 at 10:42 am

    Thanks for the link. I certainly have plenty to learn about any given period of history. Also, my copying could use some improvement! Generation is a differnt word from Reformation! hehe
    It seems, however, that my point wasn’t well communicated. What I was intending to get at with my silly question is simply that we think one figure is more important than another simply because the one died in 1711 (or whatever, as long as it was long ago) and the other is still living. I think all human beings have this tendency, and I think there’s some merit to it.

    The larger point was the second one.

  207. Robert K. said,

    August 21, 2007 at 11:16 am

    Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

    The old paths are valuable because they’ve been vetted by time and experience. They won’t lead you over a cliff.

    Influences don’t survive in time by accident. We know the names of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven for a reason. The name Kloppmeister is not known for a reason. His symphonies didn’t survive the tribunal of time. He may have been big in his day, but his work was shallow. Shallow works can be very popular in their time. They’ll be shown up over time though.

    And Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven knew the Old Paths which grounded them. Beethoven, for instance, studied Palestrina and Handel extensively. Kloppmeister maybe didn’t think that was worthwhile to do.

  208. tim prussic said,

    August 21, 2007 at 11:50 am

    I’m lost in the musical analogy of “the old paths.”

    Can the old paths, Mr. K., be hidden from our eyes by tradition? Can we mistake tradition for the old path? Of course. Thus, the old paths must be defined by the Word of God. I’m sure we have no disagreement there. The received tradition, as ancient as it may be, is not necessarily the old paths. That’s what the Reformation was all about, right? Ad fontes et al. The “newness” of the Reformation was actually old, whilst the “oldness” of the tradition was new. Thus not everything “new” is so, neither everything “old” old. This, of course, is not always so, but it’s a possibility, no?

  209. Robert K. said,

    August 21, 2007 at 12:11 pm

    Old paths in the biblical sense is not a blind appeal to authority. Discernment is needed. Find the old paths. Of course we start with the Word of God itself. Then just as Beethoven sought out the works of Palestrina to study a Christian is wise to engage doctrinal influences that have been vetted by time and the collective wisdom of other Christians over the centuries.

    Of course just knowing these classic influences also mitigates against one coming under the influence of a, shall we say, less than worthwhile modern influence. It doesn’t mean we shun anything that appears in our lifetime or in recent history. Vos is valuable for what he brings that is new, but mostly because his work rests on the solid foundation of Reformed orthodoxy. He knew the old paths and stayed on them.

  210. August 26, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    […] As expected, my time for blogging is quite limited. In the meantime, Green Baggins covered Justification by Faith and Assurance, Apostasy and Areas of Alternate Assertions. As usual, the comments under those posts […]


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