The Church: Its Definition in Terms of “Visible” and “Invisible” Valid
January 5, 2007 at 1:26 pm (Church, Federal Vision, Heresy, New Perspective on Paul, Roman Catholicism)
As promised, here is the paper written by Rev. Wes White. He wrote this paper as part of his research for the study committee of the Siouxlands Presbytery, which dealt with the question of the theologies of NPP/NS/FV. These are his thoughts, not mine, though I agree with 99.9% of the paper. My only difference is on the interpretation of Matthew 13’s parable of the wheat and tares (although I haven’t decided yet what I think; so I may not actually disagree with him).
Introduction – Sources of the Debate
For the Reformers, the central debate of the Reformation was justification by faith alone. From Rome’s perspective, the central debate was the Church. The Reformers contended that you needed to know first the true Gospel, and then you could find the Church based on who taught it. Rome said that you needed first to know the Church, and then you would know what the true faith is.
On the one side, Rome contended that “the Church is a union of men who are united by the profession of the same Christian faith, and by participation in the same sacraments under the direction of their lawful pastors, especially the one representative of Christ on earth, the Pope of Rome.”1 Thus, Rome defined the Church as the visible community that appears under the government of the Pope, and so the visible community that appears as the Church is the Church without any qualification.
In contrast to this, the Reformers contended that the Church was made up of the elect and true believers. Thus, Martin Luther said, “He who does not truly believe…does not belong to the Christian Church.”2 Consequently, “If the Pope were not pious and holy, he could not be a member, much less the head of the holy Church.”3 Calvin speaks similarly, “To God alone must be left the knowledge of his Church, of which His secret election forms the foundation.”4
This did not mean, of course, that the Reformers denied the existence of a visible Church. It simply meant that the Church in its essence was different than the Church that appears before our eyes. Thus, Calvin wrote:
I have observed that the Scriptures speak of the Church in two ways. Sometimes when they speak of the Church they mean the Church as it really is before God…Often, too by the name of Church is designated the whole body of mankind scattered throughout the world, who profess to worship one God and Christ, who by baptism are initiated into the faith.5
This definition describes exactly what the Reformers and their heirs meant by the distinction between the visible and invisible Church. The true Church consists of believers who are visible but yet not always visible as believers. Consequently, we may call the community of true and feigned professors of the faith “Church,” but in a more proper sense we call the true professors “Church.”
Thus, the primary issue between Rome and Protestantism was whether the word “Church” was used in Scripture with only one meaning or whether it had diverse senses. Rome affirmed the former; Protestantism the latter. Rome wanted to put all the emphasis on the visible communion under the Pope. This was true not only because of their view of the membership of the Church and of the sacraments, but, for them it was a powerful polemic against the Reformation. They argued as follows. First, the Church is always visible. Second, the Church of the Reformation was not seen before the Reformation. Consequently, the Church of the Reformation is not the true Church. So, we can see that a great deal of the argument over the Reformation turned around this point.
Curiously, in modern times, many Protestants have turned their back on the classic Protestant distinction of the visible and invisible Church. Thus, Karl Barth wrote:
By men assembling here and there in the Holy Spirit there arises here and there a visible Christian congregation. It is best not apply the idea of invisibility to the Church; we are all inclined to slip away with that in the direction of a civitas platonica or some sort of Cloud-cuckooland, in which the Christians are united inwardly and invisibly, while the visible Church is devalued.6
Barth and many other modern theologians saw this distinction of the visible and invisible Church as a flight from the world and an intrusion of Platonic ideas on Christian theology.
In addition, more recently, some more conservative and confessional theologians and pastors such as John Murray, Klaas Schilder, and the advocates of the so-called Federal Vision theology7 have expressed a desire to move away from distinguishing the Church in the way that the Protestant Reformers did. Thus, John Murray writes in his article “The Church: Its Distinction in Terms of ‘Visible’ and ‘Invisible’ Invalid”:
“Strictly speaking, it is not proper to speak of the ‘visible church.’ According to Scripture we should speak of ‘the church’ and conceive of it as that visible entity that exists and functions in accord with the institution of Christ as its Head.”8 All these theologians and pastors evidence a desire to go back to using the word “Church” with only one meaning.
In this paper, we will be focusing on a couple of these writers as we argue in favor of the classic distinction. It is important to note that though they all seem to want to define “Church” with only one meaning, they do not all desire the same meaning to be attached to that word. We shall deal first with the error of Rome, which is repeated in Douglas Wilson, Otto Weber, and others, that the word Church in the present time should only refer to what we call the visible Church. That is, those who are baptized and members of the Church are in the Church, and we cannot apply any other sense of Church to say that unbelieving baptized members who remain in the external communion are not in the Church at this point in history.9 On the other side, Murray desires to define the Church simply in terms of those who are effectually called and does not want to allow the term to be used to refer in any way to all those who profess true faith and their children. We shall deal first with Wilson’s error and then with Murray’s.
First Question: Should the Church be Defined Only in Terms of the Visible Communion of the Church? Defining the Question
First, we must be careful in discussing this issue to understand that we are not referring simply to visible and invisible aspects of the Church. Everyone agrees on this point. The Romanist theologian Ludwig Ott admits, “Side by side with the outward visible side, the Church, like her Divine-human Founder, has also an inner, invisible side.”10 We are not asking if there are visible and invisible sides of the Church, for this is a point on which everyone agrees. Rather, the issue is whether the membership of the Church that we see is different from that of the Church in its essence.
Second, we are not asking if the members of the Church today are the same as at the end of time. Thus, Doug Wilson desires that we make visible and invisible refer to historical and eschatological. The historical Church is the Church as it exists now “those throughout history who profess the true faith, together with their children.” The eschatological Church occurs at the end of time when “every true child of God will be there, not one missing, and every false professor will have been removed.”11 He argues on this basis that we have wrongly “tended to make an ontological distinction instead of an historical distinction.”12 In other words, the Church is not the same today as it will be in heaven. Every side would affirm this point. The question is rather whether true believers are members of the Church in a more proper and true sense than those who only profess the true faith.
Thirdly, this is not a question of whether there is a church of the elect “composing a church in hyper-space.”13 The Reformed did not call it a Church of the elect because it was a separate Church up in heaven or some ideal, Platonic form. Rather, as Ursinus noted, “It is called invisible, not that the men who are in it are invisible, but because of the faith and piety of those who belong to it can neither be seen, nor known, except by those who possess it; and also because we cannot with certainty distinguish the godly from those who are hypocrites in the visible church.”14 All sides admit that the Church has visible manifestations in the world, but the question is whether all those who are members of the Church as it appears are truly members of the Church.
To understand what we are debating, we define the Church on earth in the strict sense as Rijssen defines it: “The Church militant is the assembly of called men who believe the divine truth in the heart, confess it from the mouth, and promise to have communion with the saints (Acts 2:41-42).”15 This is similar to the definition of Johannes à Marck: “A multitude of fallen men who, according to eternal election, are called by God’s grace to its communion, are united with Christ and one another by the Holy Spirit, faith and love, and will afterwards be saved eternally.”16 In other words, Church, in the strict sense, consists of true believers.
Secondly, this Church has both visible and invisible aspects. Thus, Rijssen goes on to explain, “And since particular members gather publicly to worship God, there arises a twofold state of the Church. The first is internal and invisibly joined with Christ, and the second is external and visibly joined with one another (1 Cor. 12:12-13).”17 This is the same point that we found in the quote from Ursinus above. The elect believers have a faith that we cannot see, but they themselves are visible and join visibly with other believes.
Thirdly, “Reprobates and hypocrites imitate the external state and the works done in it, but they are not simply for that reason members of the true Church (Ga. 2:4).”18 This external confession of the mouth and worship can be imitated and, according to the Bible, often is. This assembly of people who confess the truth externally is generally what is meant by the term “visible Church.” As Edward Leigh noted: “The visible Church…consists of men professing the true faith and religion in any way, whether in truth or counterfeit and falsely, of good and evil, of elect and reprobate.”19
This last definition of the visible Church is often referred to in Scripture. In the parable of the wheat and the tares, the tares grow up with the wheat and are eventually separated from them (Mt. 13:36-43). The parable of the dragnet describes the preaching of the word taking in both good and bad (Mt. 13:47-52). Paul describes the great house of the Church as being on in which there are vessels for honor and dishonor (2 Tim. 2:20). Thus, in the visible Church, there are the righteous and unrighteous.
Note, then:
1. The Church refers to the effectually called elect.
2. This Church has both internal and external aspects.
3. Reprobates and the wicked can imitate that external state.
4. This worshipping community of elect and reprobate men may also be called “Church.”
5. This last use of “Church” is what the Reformed meant by “visible Church.”
The question we are debating, then, is this. Besides the meaning of the word Church in the sense of #4, does the Scripture use the word “Church” in the sense of #1? In other words, besides the visible Church in which are mixed many hypocrites and evil men with the true believers, does the Bible use the word “Church” in a way that refers only to the elect and the true believers not only at the end of time but also in the present? We affirm this definition against Rome and the many modern theologians who deny this distinction and confine the meaning of the word “Church” to the visibly gathered community.
Arguments
1. The most important text is 1 Jn. 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be manifest, that none of them were of us.” Calvin sums up the argument this way: “He then confesses that they had gone out from the bosom of the Church; but he denies that they were ever of the Church.”20 Consequently, there is a meaning of “us” and “the Church” that does not refer to those who depart from the visible communion of the Church.
2. The way Paul describes the Israelites who had fallen away in Romans. He says, “He is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly” (Rom. 2:28-29). Thus, only the regenerate Jews are true “Jews” and part of the Church. He speaks similarly in Rom. 9:6: “For they are not all Israel who are of Israel.” In one sense, they belonged to Israel, but in another sense they did not. And note that they did not become “non-Israel” because of their unbelief. Rather, they do not believe because they are not of Israel.
3. Jesus’ definition of His sheep in John 10. First, He says negatively, “You do not believe because you are not of My sheep” (Jn. 10:26). It is not that they are not of His sheep because they do not believe; rather, they do not believe because they are not of His sheep. Secondly, He says positively: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me” (Jn. 10:27). Thus, we have a clear instance of Jesus defining His flock simply in terms of those who believe and hear His voice.
4. Titles and attributes are ascribed to the members of the Church that cannot refer to the reprobate or unregenerate such as election (Eph. 1:4, 1 Pet. 2:9); victory over Satan (Mt. 16:18); children of promise and born of the Spirit (Gal. 4:28-29); saved by Christ and beneficiaries of His death (Eph. 5:23); and life, being a spiritual house or a royal priesthood, holy, called out of darkness, and obtaining mercy (1 Pet. 2:5, 9-10). In all of these cases, these attributes and titles cannot apply to the reprobate and unregenerate either temporally or finally; therefore, the idea of Church in these passages includes only the elect and regenerate.
What is the Use of This Doctrine?
1. From the context of the passages above and others, we can see how this doctrine may be used. The first use is that we might avoid presumption. As we can see from the history of Israel and most of the rest of Church history, there is a great tendency of man to rely on participation in a few external rites for his salvation (Is. 1, Rom. 2:17, etc.). The Bible often uses this doctrine to warn against this tendency. Thus, Paul in Romans 2, warns the Jews not to rest on its external association with the Church as assurance that they really belong to it (Rom. 2:28-29). Jesus warns those who have experienced great blessings in the external association of the Church that if they do not obey Him, He will say to them, “Depart from me, you worker of lawlessness, I never knew you” (Mt. 7:23, cf. 1 Cor. 10:1-13, Heb. 3:12-13, Heb. 6:4-6, etc.).
2. It assures us of God’s power and grace. This is the heart of the issue in Romans 9-11. “It is not as though the Word of God has taken no effect” (Rom. 9:6). In other words, the Word of God has accomplished exactly what God wanted it to do. It gave mercy to those whom God had elected. It is not as if God had intended to save Israel but was unable to save them. Rather, those who rejected the word were not “Israel” (Rom. 9:6). Thus, this doctrine teaches us the security and stability of grace.
3. Consequently, it is also very assuring for the individual believer. We can understand that however the Church may falter, yet God preserves a Church for Himself, a remnant according to grace (Rom. 11:4-5). The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church (Mt. 16:18), and they will not prevail against me because I, as a member of the Church, am in Christ’s hand (Jn. 10:28-30).
4. It demolishes the claims of Rome. Their definition of the Church cannot stand against the Scriptures. Their argument that the Church must always be visible in the eyes of the world must fall. The Pope is not the head of the Church because he is not a member of the Church. The question of the Papists, “Where was your Church before the Reformation?” is easily answered. Thus, Turretin wrote, “The importance of this question is such that on its decision many questions and all of those concerning the Church that exist between us and the Papists depend on it.”21
Objections
We first note that the opponents of this view rarely deal with the texts that we have cited. Thus, the Lutheran theologian Quenstedt noted in his discussion of this question, “Bellarmine does not attack our stronger arguments, with which we prove that in a certain sense and respect the church is invisible; he cites some weaker [arguments] and tries to reply to them.”22 Nevertheless, we do reply to several objections.
1. The visible church is compared to a field in which there are tares, a house in which are ignoble vessels, a net in which are bad fish, a tree with unfruitful branches, etc.23
Reply. This is the most common argument, but none of these are to the point. These refer to the external state of the Church, which we admit is one way the Bible speaks of “Church.” The question is rather whether there is also another sense in which the Bible speaks of Church, namely, to refer only to the elect and effectually called. Thus, Du Moulin replies to Cardinal Perron, “They bring also texts that speak of a visible Church, intending thereby to prove that there is no invisible Church, with as much reason, as I would prove that there is no reasonable creature, because there are some unreasonable.”24 This is similar to the objection that the Papists often bring up, namely, that we deny that there is a visible Church.25
2. It creates a Church of the elect in hyperspace and neglects the importance of history.26
Reply. This results from a misunderstanding of the doctrine. It is not one Church in hyperspace that is real and another on earth that is not. The true Church is known perfectly to God and imperfectly to men, even though the men are visible. What makes it invisible is the faith and piety of the men who compose it and the fact that reprobates can imitate the external state.27
3. “This leads to a disparagement of the visible Church, and eventually necessitates, I believe, a baptistic understanding of the Church.”28
Reply. First, the abuse of a thing does not determine the truth of a thing. On the other hand, the truth is in accord with godliness (Tit. 1:1). We can surely admit that there are those who have emphasized being a believer at the expense of being a part of the visible Church. But it is important to note that this problem is not new. In the 17th century, the Socinians denied that it was necessary for believers (in their sense) to join the visible Church or that it was something that should be carefully sought out. They also downplayed the ministry. The Reformed theologians of the 16th and 17th century argued vehemently against this view. Thus, they had to deal with Rome who said too much and the Socinians who said too little.29 Rome erred in excess by making joining the visible Church absolutely necessary. The Socinians argued in defect that it need not be anxiously sought out or joined. Hoornbeeck insisted that while it was not necessary to join the Church for salvation, it was most necessary for knowing Christ properly, living a godly life, and confessing His truth, just as, it is not necessary to make many prayers to be saved, but it is certainly necessary for the Christian life.
Thus, we contend that the solution to the problems that are often brought up were adequately dealt with by the Reformed theologians of the 17th century who fought against the errors in defect of the Remonstrants and Socinians. The answer to these problems is not a denial of the invisible/visible church distinction but rather a proper emphasis and teaching of the visible church. Moreover, we contend that a denial of the invisible/visible church distinction as we define it here also has very bad consequences: presumption, calling into question God’s sovereign grace, removing the comfort of the believer, and weakening our defenses against Rome and its theology.
4. Those who turned away from the faith were branches that were a part of the tree (Jn. 15:2); therefore, not only the elect are a part of the Church.
Reply. First, we freely admit that not only the elect belong to the visible and external society of the Church. But we deny that they are for that reason part of the Church in the more proper sense or in every sense. We assert that the Scripture speaks about the Church in two senses, as it truly is before God, and as it appears before men.
Second, the parable does not teach that the branches are the same. The branches of the tree that are cut off are those that do not bear fruit. Thus, there is a distinction between fruitful branches that remain and unfruitful branches that are cut off. This is how the famous exegete, Andrew Willet replied:
Is a dead bow or a branch, I pray you, any part of the tree? I think not: the tree cannot conveniently spare any one of the parts thereof, but the dead parts are hurtful and cumbersome, and it doth the tree good to cut them off…For as what is in the body receiving no life nor power from the body is not properly a part of the body, however it seems to be joined to the body; so the wicked although they be in the outward face of the Church, yet because they are not partakers of the spiritual life thereof by Christ, are not truly to be judged members of it.30
Third, this is not the only parable that teaches us about those who appear to be part of the Church but are not. In Mt. 7:15-20, Jesus speaks of false prophets as wolves in sheep’s clothing. They appear to be sheep, but only have sheepskin. In the parable of the sower (Mt. 13), there are a variety of responses to the word. Those who remain for a time and then fall away are either on rocky or thorny soil. They are not seeds planted on good seed that then fall away. In the wheat and tares, the tares are removed, but they are never wheat (Mt. 13:24-30 & 36-43). In the parable of the dragnet, the bad fish are gathered in the net but then cast out, but they are never good fish. Consequently, we conclude that they were never really a part of the Church, though they outwardly appeared to be a part of the Church.
5. Then we cannot know where the true Church is.
Reply: First, Marck responds, “It is sufficient for the individual members of the Church to be known probably by a judgment of charity, since God alone knows the heart” (277). Second, the true Church is marked out by the true preaching of the Word, and this can be known by an examination of the Scriptures.
6. The Westminster Confession in XXV.1 teaches that the invisible Church is an eschatological Church.31
Reply. The Confession does define the invisible Church as consisting of all the elect. However, the members of the visible Church are never members of the invisible Church, and the elect are not always a member of the invisible Church in the same way. We can see this from the Westminster Larger Catechism. First, the privileges of the visible Church do not include union and communion with Christ in grace and glory (Q. 63-65). Only those who are members of the invisible Church have this benefit (Q. 65, 68). Moreover, this union with Christ occurs at the time of their effectual calling (Q. 66), which only happens to the elect (Q. 68).
Summation
We have seen that the visible and invisible Church distinction is not a matter of visible and invisible aspects of the Church, a Church in hyperspace or some Platonic ideal, or an historical and eschatological Church. Rather, the distinction refers to the fact that the Church that appears before our eyes is not the Church as it truly is. Some are members of the external communion who are not members of the body of Christ.
To define the Church simply in terms of the visible communion is to make a grievous error. It encourages presumption, tends to overemphasize the external communion, leads to a questioning of sovereign grace, and weakens the Protestant polemic against Rome. We can only consider such a definition of the Church as a departure from Protestant orthodoxy.
Second Question: May the Church be defined as consisting only of believers in such a way that the visible/invisible Church distinction is denied?
Defining the Question
John Murray and other conservative theologians raise this question and also feel uncomfortable speaking of an “invisible” Church. John Murray considers that this distinction is invalid.32
We must note at the outset that his approach is quite different from many modern theologians, Wilson, and Rome. Murray states rather adamantly: “Our definition of the church must not be framed in terms of an accommodation by which we make provision, within our definition, for the inclusion of hypocrites, that is to say, of those who profess to be Christ’s but are not really his.”33 In other words, the members of the Church must be defined only and always as those who are regenerate. Hypocrites are not to be included in the definition at all. Consequently, it is illegitimate for Wilson and others to appeal to Murray as if he were saying exactly what they do.34 Both Wilson and Murray agree that the Church is only to be defined in one way, but Murray says the Church only includes believers, while Wilson says that it includes all members of the visible Church, even hypocrites.
Nevertheless, Murray does go on to declare that the distinction between the “visible” and “invisible” Church is invalid. Moreover, we should not think that Murray reaffirms the old distinction when he says, “It may not be improper to speak of the church as characterized by attributes that are invisible or, in other words, to say that the church has invisible aspects.”35 Certainly everyone could agree that there are some aspects of the Church that are invisible. Even Rome would admit that not everything about the Church is visible!36 Murray simply means by this that the same people that have faith that is unseen manifest it in coming together as Church. This is not what the classic Protestant definition refers to, though, of course, all the older Protestant theologians would gladly admit that what Murray says is true.37
We would also add that there is no reason why Murray should deny this classic distinction since he affirms that the Church is defined in terms of faith, which is not visible, and though the men who believe are visible, they are not always visible as believers. This is so because they walk inconsistently with their belief and others imitate the fruit of faith. Thus, Bellarmine even admits on this question, “If they who are destitute of internal faith are not and cannot be in the church, there will be no further question concerning the invisibility of the church between us and the heretics.” He adds his reason for that statement, “No one can certainly know who are truly righteous and pious among so many, who externally profess righteousness and piety.”38 Consequently, Murray ought to admit that the “appellation ‘visible,’ extends more widely than that of ‘invisible’ because many are called, few are chosen (Mt. 20:16).”39
Weighty Reasons for Calling the Church “Invisible”
Murray opposes this distinction for two reasons. First, he believes that it is unscriptural. Second, he believes that it is liable to abuses that can be removed by the use of other terms.40 We consider first, then, whether Scripture provide warrant for using this distinction. This first question can also be divided into two questions. First, does the Scripture refer to the essence of the Church both as to internal faith and its true members as invisible? Second, does it call all those who externally unite themselves to the Church “Church” but in a different sense?
On the first question, Murray writes, “‘The Church’ in the New Testament never appears as an invisible entity and therefore may never be defined in terms of invisibility.”41 Of course, the Church is always visible in some sense, such as that those who have true faith are visible as humans, but this is not pertinent to the question. The question is whether the Church in the strict sense, as the company of believers, is ever visible to the eyes as such a body. This is precisely what the classic distinction denies while admitting visibility in other senses.
When the question is framed in such a way, the Scriptural evidence for such a definition easily appears. Turretin provides seven arguments for this distinction. First, he argues that all the arguments listed in the first section of this paper (among others) prove this point. Second, he refers to those passages that explicitly contrast the external appearance with the internal reality (Rom. 9:6, Gal. 6:16, Rom. 2:28-29) and concludes that the internal form is not visible at all nor the true members as such. Third, election, effectual calling, and union with Christ are all internal realities that cannot be seen by the eyes. Fourth, “the head of the Church is invisible; therefore, His body also is invisible.” Fifth, it is an object of faith; therefore, it is not seen (Heb. 11:1). Sixth, the kingdom of God does not come with observation and is within you (Lk. 17:20-21). Seventh, the true worshippers are those who “worship in spirit and in truth” (Jn. 4:23).42 We might add the parables that speak of the wheat that is indiscernible from the tares (Mt. 13) and the wolves that look like sheep because of sheep’s clothing (Mt. 7:15). All of these arguments indicate that the term “invisible” is not only advisable but also necessary.
Based on these observations, we conclude that Murray is incorrect to question “the advisability of the use of the actual term ‘invisible,’” and to call it a “precarious foundation.”43 Rather, we say that though many “are accustomed to traduce the invisible church as a Platonic idea and a mere figment or chimera of the Protestants…[W]e affirm it, influenced by the most weighty reasons.”44
Reasons for Calling All Those in the Visible Communion “The Visible Church”
But Murray not only has problems with the way that Church has been defined as invisible, he also has problems with the way the Westminster Confession of Faith (as one example) defines the visible Church as those who profess the true faith together with their children. He claims that our definition of the church should not be framed in such a way that includes “those who profess to be Christ’s but are not really his.”45 Of course, we can grant that this is true in regard to the invisible Church, but this is not helpful in regard to the external communion. What actually defines or limits the visible Church? It cannot be true and saving faith because all do not have it. Rather, it is admission into the Church through baptism along with the profession of saving faith. This is how we must answer the question of what constitutes the external communion. What makes one a Jew or church member externally must obviously be defined in terms of external marks.
Murray objects that we should not make this accommodation in our definition of the Church because the Bible applies to the local congregation attributes that can only apply to true believers within her (1 Cor. 1:1-2). We answer that, of course, the local Church is denominated from her better part, but when Paul writers to a local congregation, he refers to all those who are actually gathered there. Thus, some are called members of the Church univocally and others equivocally, but even those who are called so equivocally are still called members of the Church.46 This collection of members who are truly so called and members who are called such only equivocally is what we call the visible Church.
Moreover, the Bible does plainly call this visible gathered body “Church.” We find that Solomon blessed the whole assembly47 while they were standing (1 Kings 8:14). Jesus tells us, “Tell it to the Church” (Mt. 18:17). Those who gladly received the word and were baptized were added to their number (Acts 2:41). Paul greeted the Church at Caesarea (1 Cor. 18:22). Even a passage like “they are not all Israel who are of Israel” (Rom. 9:6) illustrates that those who are only a part of the external communion are “Israel” in some sense and possess some benefits as Paul states in Rom. 9:4-5. This is why the Westminster Larger Catechism refers to the benefits that belong to all who are in the visible church.48
Why, then, if the Bible calls this visible community “Church,” should we not do so? When we look at all the data of Scripture we find that the Bible uses the word and concept Church in two ways (at least!). It refers sometimes to true believers and at other times to the visible communion that includes both believers and unbelievers who profess the true faith. This is what Protestants from Luther to Calvin to the Westminster Assembly to Turretin to Marck have most aptly defined as the invisible and visible Church respectively.
Murray’s Practical Objections to the Protestant Definition
One reason that Murray might give for not calling the external members “church” is that this distinction is open to abuses that other distinctions eliminate.49 He mentions the fact that some were too hesitant to leave apostate denominations in which they had no godly fellowship because they took comfort in the communion of the invisible Church.50 Consequently, they made no effort to leave apostate denominations. We respond, first, that we certainly admit that wrong conclusions may and sometimes are drawn from Biblical doctrines. Some conclude from the doctrine of justification that we nullify the law (Rom. 3:31). Some conclude from our teaching on predestination that God is responsible for evil (Rom. 9:19). In each case, however, we should not abandon the doctrine but clarify our teaching concerning it. We must teach sanctification as well as justification. We must teach human responsibility as well as divine election. We must teach the importance of the visible Church as well as the invisible.
Second, Murray cannot remove the potential for abuse of doctrine. It is not too hard to see how defining Church in one way can lead to someone affirming the opposite of what he says about the members of the Church and falling into the problems we mentioned above.51 Are we to abandon Murray’s doctrine for the simple reason that some have taken it in directions that he would not want to?
Third, even though some misuse the doctrine of the visible/invisible Church distinction in order to downplay ecclesiastical responsibilities, is there not some ground for taking comfort from this distinction? Thus, when Elijah saw the whole visible Church fall into apostasy, did not God Himself comfort Elijah with the fact that He reserved a true Church for Himself of 7,000 that had not bowed the knee to Baal? This is also the same point that Martin Luther made when Erasmus challenged him that it was incredible that the Church had been apostate for so long and been deserted by God. Luther responded, “That is not the Church of Christ which is commonly so called, i.e., the pope and the bishops; but the church is the certain few pious persons whom he preserves as remnants.” Thus, he concluded, “God had never deserted his church.”52 Should we not take the same comfort today when we labor hard for Church unity but find that the visible unity is fractured in spite of all efforts? Can we not take comfort that in spite of our sad visible differences true believers are all one in Christ Jesus?
Confusion from Murray’s Way of Conceiving the Church
As a final point on Murray’s views, we wish to point out the confusion that can arise from the adaptation of his viewpoint. Murray says that we should think of the Church this way:
According to Scripture we should speak of ‘the church’ and conceive of it as that visible entity that exists and functions in accord with the institution of Christ as its Head, the church that is the body of Christ indwelt and directed by the Holy Spirit, consisting of those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be saints, manifested in the congregations of the faithful, and finally the church glorious, holy and without blemish.53
But here Murray treats of diverse things that do not have the same mode of existence. “The visible entity…[that] functions in accord with the institution of Christ” can be conceived apart from those who are “sanctified in Christ Jesus.” In other words, believers can exist apart from that visible entity and in a visible entity that does not function in accord with the institution of Christ.
Furthermore, consider the following questions that arise from always conceiving of the Church in the way that Murray suggests. If there are believers, such as in the time of Elijah, when the visible entity does not function in accord with Christ’s institution, does that mean they are not “Church”? Are those who truly believe but are not part of the visible entity that functions in accord with the institution of Christ truly a part of “the Church”? Are those who are excommunicated but true believers a part of the Church? Could Erasmus have answered Martin Luther, “But the Church was the visible entity!”? We are not claiming that we know how Murray would answer any of these questions, but we do believe that these and similar questions can and should be raised and that his definition does not adequately account for them.
Summation
While Murray’s error is not as severe as those who seek to define the Church simply as those who are baptized members of it, nevertheless, it is a view that creates confusion and is open to many of the pitfalls of the previous view. Moreover, Murray does not deal adequately with the tradition on this matter. Murray does not take into account the Scriptures that are used to prove the doctrine. He interacts only in a cursory way with the exegetical, theological, and historical background of the doctrine, and yet calls into question a classic Protestant distinction given in answer to what Turretin calls “one of the most important questions.”54 In addition, his viewpoint contradicts the confession that he professed to hold to, the Westminster Confession, and has left open the door to more serious errors. Consequently, his views should be rejected, and we should affirm the classic way of distinguishing the invisible and visible Church.
Conclusion
We have seen from this article that this Protestant doctrine has fallen on hard times in this modern era, but not at the hands of Romanists but of Protestants. This situation should be examined. When we carefully examine the sources of Reformed doctrine we find unanimity on the substance of this doctrine and that for the older Protestants it is fundamental to the dispute with Rome. This situation requires more care than has often been given to it and less eagerness to dismiss with this distinction. We also must be careful that we do not replace the classic distinction with one that is contrary to its substance, such as the historical and eschatological Church. We must also be on our guard against such replacement distinctions because they are sometimes presented as in consonance with or the same as the classic distinction.
Most importantly, this doctrine is deeply Scriptural. The distinction between members who are truly and internally members of the Church and those that are such only externally is not only a doctrine that is properly deduced from Scripture but also one that is actually explicitly stated in Scripture. Consequently, we who desire to affirm the old way should feel no hesitation in making the valid distinction between the visible and invisible Church. However much the Roman communion and modern Protestants “are accustomed to traduce the invisible church as a Platonic idea and a mere figment or chimera of the Protestants…we affirm it, influenced by the most weighty reasons.”55
1. Robert Bellarmine, cited in Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, tr. by Patrick Lynch, ed. by Jams Canon Bastible (Rockford, Illinois: Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., 1960), p. 271.
2. Cited in Francis Pieper, Christian Dogmatics, Vol. III (Saint Louis: Concordia, 1953), p. 401.
3. Ibid.
4. John Calvin, The Institutes of the Christian Religion, tr. by Henry Beveridge, (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1989), IV:i.2.
5. Ibid., IV:i.7.
6. Karl Barth, Dogmatics in Outline (St. Louis: Harper Torchbooks, 1959), p. 142. See also Otto Weber, Foundations of Dogmatics, Vol. II, tr. by Darrell L. Guder (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1983), pp. 540-7.
7. See The Federal Vision, ed. by Duane Garner & Steve Wilkins (Monroe, LA: Athanasius Press, 2004); and The Auburn Avenue Theology Pros & Cons: Debating the Federal Vision, ed. by E. Calvin Beisner (Ft. Lauderdale: Knox Theological Seminary, 2004).
8. In John Murray, The Collected Writings of John Murray, Vol. 1 (Carlisle, PA: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1976), pp. 231-236.
9. Wilson does make a distinction between the historical and eschatological Church, which we will deal with below.
10. Ott, p. 302.
11. Douglas Wilson, “Reformed” is Not Enough, (Moscow, ID: Canon Press, 2002), p. 72.
12. Doug Wilson, “The Church: Visible or Invisible,” in The Federal Vision, p. 266.
13. Ibid., p. 268.
14. Zacharias Ursinus, Commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1956), p. 287.
15. Leonardus Rijssenius, Summa Elencticae Theologiae (Edinburgh: George Mosman, 1692), p. 280.
16. Johannes Marckius, Christianae Theologiae Medulla (Amsterdam: Gerard Borstius, 1690), XXXII.5.
17. Rijssenius, p. 280.
18. Ibid.
19. Edward Leigh, Systematic Theology (London: 1662), p 624.
20. John Calvin, Commentary on the First Epistle of John in Calvin’s Commentaries XXII (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1999), p. 191.
21. Francis Turretin, Compendium Theologiae Didactico-Elencitcae ex Theologorum Nostrum Institutionibus Theologicis Auctum et Illustratum, ed. by Leonardus Rijssenius (Amsterdam: George Gallet, 1695), p. 196.
22. Johann Andreas Quenstedt, The Church, edited, abridged, and translated by Luther Poellot (Malone, TX: Repristination Press, 1999), p. 58.
23. See Wilson, “The Church: Visible or Invisible?” pp. 268-69.
24. Pierre Du Moulin, The Novelty of Popery Opposed to the Antiquity of True Christianity Against the Book of Cardinal Perron (London: Robert White, 1662), p. 8.
25. See Ludwig Ott, p. 301.
26. Wilson, “The Church: Visible or Invisible?” p. 268.
27. See above on what the question is not and the quote from Ursinus in the same place.
28. Wilson, “Reformed” is not Enough, p. 75.
29. Johannes Hoornbeeck, Socinianismi Confutati Compendium (Lugdunum Batavia: Felicem Lopez, 1690), p. 857.
30. Andrew Willet, Synopsis Papismi (London: Thomas Orwin, 1592), p. 43.
31. Wilson, “Reformed” is not Enough, p. 73.
32. John Murray, “The Church: Its Distinction Into ‘Visible’ and ‘Invisible’ Invalid.”
33. John Murray, Christian Baptism (Philadelphia: The Committee on Christian Education, The Orthodox Presbyterian Church, 1952), p. 42.
34. Doug Wilson, “The Church: Visible or Invisible,” p. 266.
35. Murray “The Church: Its Definition in Terms of ‘Visible’ and ‘Invisible’ Invalid,” p. 231.
36. See Ott, p. 302.
37. See the quotes from Ursinus, Commentary, p. 287 and Rijssenius, Summa, p. 280.
38. Robert Bellarmine, “De Ecclesia Militante,” 3.10 Opera [1857], 2:91 cited in Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, tr. by William M. Geiger, ed. by James T. Dennison (Philipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian & Reformed, 1997), XVIII:vii.3.
39. Turretin, Institutes, XVIII:vii.4.
40. Murray, “The Church: Its Definition in Terms of ‘Visible’ and ‘Invisible’ Invalid,” p. 232.
41. Ibid., p. 234.
42. See Turretin, Institutes, XVIII:vii.7-13. Turretin provides much fuller argumentation in the sections cited here.
43. Murray, “The Church: Its Definition in Terms of ‘Visible’ and ‘Invisible’ Invalid,” pp. 234 and 235.
44. Turretin, Institutes, XVIII:vii.6.
45. Murray, Christian Baptism, p. 42.
46. On the idea of members univocally and equivocally, see Samuel Maresius, Collegium Theologicum sive Systema Breve Universae Theologiae (Groningen: Johannes Collenus, 1659) XV.11.
47. The Hebrew word qahal is a parallel to the Greek word ekklēsia.
48. See Question 63.
49. Murray, “The Church: Its Definition in Terms of ‘Visible’ and ‘Invisible’ Invalid,” p. 235.
50. Ibid.
51. As Wilson takes Murray’s doctrine in a completely different direction.
52. Cited in Turretin, Institutes, XVIII:vii.2.
53. Murray, “The Church: Its Definition in Terms of ‘Visible’ and ‘Invisible’ Invalid,” p. 236.
54. Turretin, Institutes, XVIII:vii.3.
55. Turretin, Institutes, XVIII:vii.6.
Bibliography/Works Cited
Barth, Karl. Dogmatics in Outline. St. Louis: Harper Torchbooks, 1959.
Beisner, Cal, ed. The Auburn Avenue Theology Pros & Cons: Debating the Federal Vision. Ft. Lauderdale: Knox Theological Seminary, 2004.
Calvin, John. Commentary on the First Epistle of John in Calvin’s Commentaries XXII. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1999.
________. The Institutes of the Christian Religion, tr. by Henry Beveridge. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1989.
Du Moulin, Pierre. The Novelty of Popery Opposed to the Antiquity of True Christianity Against the Book of Cardinal Perron. London: Robert White, 1662.
Garner, Duane & Wilkins, Steve, eds. The Federal Vision. Monroe, LA: Athanasius Press, 2004.
Hoornbeeck, Johannes. Socinianismi Confutati Compendium. Lugdunum Batavia: Felicem Lopez, 1690.
Leigh, Edward. Systematic Theology. London: 1662.
Marckius, Johannes. Christianae Theologiae Medulla. Amsterdam: Gerard Borstius, 1690.
Maresius, Samuel. Collegium Theologicum sive Systema Breve Universae Theologiae. Groningen: Johannes Collenus, 1659.
Murray, John. Christian Baptism. Philadelphia: The Committee on Christian Education, The Orthodox Presbyterian Church, 1952.
_______. “The Church: Its Definition in Terms of ‘Visible’ and ‘Invisible’ Invalid,” in The Collected Writings of John Murray, Vol. 1. Carlisle, PA: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1976, pp. 231-6.
Ott, Ludwig. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, tr. by Patrick Lynch, ed. by Jams Canon Bastible. Rockford, Illinois: Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., 1960.
Pieper, Francis, Christian Dogmatics, Vol. III. Saint Louis: Concordia, 1953.
Quenstedt, Johann Andreas. The Church, edited, abridged, and translated by Luther Poellot. Malone, TX: Repristination Press, 1999.
Rijssenius, Leonardus, Summa Elencticae Theologiae. Edinburgh: George Mosman, 1692.
Turretin, Francis. Compendium Theologiae Didactico-Elencitcae ex Theologorum Nostrum Institutionibus Theologicis Auctum et Illustratum, ed. by Leonardus Rijssenius. Amsterdam: George Gallet, 1695.
________. Institutes of Elenctic Theology, tr. by William M. Geiger, ed. by James T. Dennison. Philipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian & Reformed, 1997.
Ursinus, Zacharais. Commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1956.
Weber, Otto. Foundations of Dogmatics, Vol. II, tr. by Darrell L. Guder. Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1983.
Willet, Andrew. Synopsis Papismi. London: Thomas Orwin, 1592.
Wilson, Douglas, “The Church: Visible or Invisible,” in The Federal Vision, ed. by Garner, Duane & Wilkins, Steve. Monroe, LA: Athanasius Press, 2004.
________. “Reformed” is Not Enough. Moscow, ID: Canon Press, 2002.
pduggie said,
January 5, 2007 at 2:39 pm
“3. Reprobates and the wicked can imitate that external state.”
The quote from Rijssenius (who I’ve never heard of before) said that respobates and hypocrites can “immitate” that external state.
That leaves a question about those with temporary faith, who are not necessarily hypocrites. People called externally by the word are not wolves “immitating” true profession, they “receive the word with Joy”. Its this category of person rather than hypocrites that raises the more complex questions.
greenbaggins said,
January 5, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Paul, if you haven’t heard of Rijssenius, then the books you need to get are the Post-Reformation Reformed Dogmatics, by Richard Muller. These really are a must read. It isn’t nearly as dry as it sounds. He is doing theology, using the Post-Reformation scholars as his dialogue partners. There’s a whole ‘nother world of Reformed theology out there of which %99 percent of Reformed folk are unaware. Muller is a master in the field, and introduces us to all of the important figures, of which Rijssenius is one. Wes is also very well-versed in all of these theologians.
However, if I read the paper right, the quote is Wes’s own words, not Rijssenius. They are five theses that could be posited about the church.
Are you saying that people with temporary faith are not hypocrites? I really cannot go there, despite the language you are using.
Xon said,
January 5, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Please help me out here if I’m getting this wrong, but White’s discussion of the “reality” of the invisible and visible churches seems rather confused. He says that the “invisible Church” is the “more proper sense” of Church, (note his use of the quotations from Luther and Calvin at the beginning of the article, where the “default” way of talking about the Church is as the elect only, and following paragraphs.) But later he objects to saying the invisible is more “real” than the visible, though it’s not clear what else he can mean when he says that “the Church in its essence [is] different than the Church that appears before our eyes.” The essential Church vs. the ostensible Church? This sounds like a difference in ‘reality’, doesn’t it? If “Church in its essence”=invisible Church=elect only=”how God sees the Church”, then this is clearly more “real” than the Church of mere appearance that we finite human beings are forced to interact with. In fact, how do we avoid going even further than this and concluding that the “visible Church” is just an illusion–it is afterall, just an appearance to our human eyes, and it is a FALSE appearance at that (afterall, the Church, as God sees it in truth, doesn’t actually have all these mere professors of faith in it) . This is White’s definition of things, and it seems to fall in many ways into just the sort of problems that FVish minded people have worried about on its behalf. We have the “true” Church, which is all the elect known to God, and then we also have this visible manifestation of it which includes all these hypocrites. But that hypocrite-inclusive church isn’t properly “the Church” at all, but is simply a way that Scripture occasionally speaks about it. It’s a way of talking, but it ain’t the real thang.
Wes White said,
January 5, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Now that Lane has dragged me into this, I guess he wants me to respond, too.
Pduggie - they are hypocrites because they say they have true faith but do not.
Xon - 1. By more proper, I mean “strict” sense.
2. The Bible itself distinguishes these senses (1 Jn. 2:19, Rom. 2:28-29, Rom. 9:6, 1 Tim. 2:19-20 and other verses cited in the paper).
3. Those very passages indicate that hypocrites are not part of the Church in the strict sense.
4. My point about the Church being real is not that the “visible” Church is the real Church. I concede that it is real in the sense that people are “really” externally united to Christ by profession. My point is simply that we can know the invisible Church truly but imperfectly by the marks of the Church and the judgment of charity.
5. Your concerns about the hypocrite-inclusive Church are straw men. Remember the title of my paper: The Church: Its distinction into “visible” and “invisible” Church valid.
6. I do agree that this is what “FVish” people would be worried about because they generally deny or downplay the classic Protestant and Biblical distinction.
guess who said,
January 5, 2007 at 4:47 pm
I think, while you seem to be for a stricter defintiion than others, that your way (or usual practice) tends to extirpate Godliness out of the congregation; by taking a very few that can talk more than the rest, and making them the Church, and shutting out more that are as worthy, and by neglecting the souls of all the congreagation except for some public preaching;
You prejudice them by unjust rejections; and then think that you may warrantably account them unworthy: because you know no worthiness by them, when you estrange yourselves from them, and drive them away from you. We think that working with the visible church tends to make godliness universal, and that your recourse to the invisible tends to dwindle it to nothing. I know that some have spoken for endeavouring the good of all; but (pardon my plainness) I knew hardly any of you that did not, by an unjust espousing of your limit to the church of so-called true belivers, do the people a double injury 1) by denying them their Church-Rights, without any regular Church Justice, and 2) by lazily omitting most that should have been done for their salvation.
By looking to the visible church all the FV ministers agree to deal seriously and orderly with all the families of their congregation, (which some did to their wonderful benefit) but you stood off. The matter in question is, whether it be better to take 20 “true” professors for the Church, and leave nothing to head and gratify the rest? Or, to attempt the just Reformation of the congregation?
The “true” professors would have been best pleased with the first; but I’m for the latter. After a full trial, it has done that which has satisfied *all* the Professors: professed Piety and Family-Worship (in a way of Humility and Unity) was so common, that the few that differ among some Thousands are mostly ashamed of their Difference on account of Singularity, and would seem to be Godly with the rest.
So there.
pduggie said,
January 5, 2007 at 4:57 pm
The WCF speaks of “hypocrites, and other unregenerate men,” menaing that NOT ALL unregenerates are hypocrites.
Your belief that they are is against the system of doctrine of the WCF which clearly distingusihes hypocrites from others. Have you been approved to take this exception by your presbytery?
David Gadbois said,
January 5, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Pduggie, take a breath before you assume a minister must take a confessional exception over this sort of matter and consider for a moment that Rev. White probably does believe there are non-hypocritical unregenerate people. Those outside the church. And, per Westminster, those people can suffer from false assurance in being right with God.
greenbaggins said,
January 5, 2007 at 5:26 pm
BOQ your way (or usual practice) tends to extirpate Godliness out of the congregation; by taking a very few that can talk more than the rest, and making them the Church, and shutting out more that are as worthy, and by neglecting the souls of all the congreagation except for some public preaching; EOQ
You obviously didn’t read the paper very closely, did you? Neglecting the souls of all the congregation? Extirpate godliness? What rubbish!
Todd said,
January 5, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Rubbish? Richard Baxter wrote rubbish?
Todd said,
January 5, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Lane, are there certain instances of the word “church” in the NT that you believe refer only to the invisible church?
greenbaggins said,
January 5, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Richard Baxter wrote a lot of rubbish, especially on justification. You need to provide the context for this quotation. Otherwise, you make it seem as if Baxter wrote on this exact subject.
We have already talked about the instances of church in the NT. I think that there are.
Todd said,
January 5, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Someone else posted the Baxter stuff.
“We have already talked about the instances of church in the NT. I think that there are.”
Please remind me. Please refer me to where you listed these references. Please.
pduggie said,
January 6, 2007 at 9:08 am
I’m mostly just ribbin ya by posting the baxter stuff.
lighten up
greenbaggins said,
January 6, 2007 at 10:00 am
Okay.
Xon said,
January 6, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Mr. White,
First of all, know that I do not intend to be disrespectful to you at all. I am, for the record, currently under care of the Northeast Georgia Presbytery of the PCA (new presbytery just branched off from the North Georgia Presbytery on Nov 1), and I don’t want anyone to think that I am not willing to be held accountable for what I say.
Second, I don’t want to bury you with words. But this next response will be a bit long. However, if we decide to continue from here I promise to be very concise in any future follow-ups.
I’ll respond to your points from your comment (#4) one by one.
1. Okay. Sorry for being dense on that point.
2. About the Bible distinguishing b/w two senses of “Church”, I don’t have any problem with this and I don’t really think that FVish folks do either. This is a criticism I didn’t offer earlier of your paper (I still have to digest a good bit of it), but which did strike me as I read it. Claiming that the Protestant view is to distinguish b/w two senses in which we can talk about the Church, as though FVers don’t do this, seems to me to miss the mark. The question is not whether we can talk about a “visible Church” or an “invisible Church,” but what exactly we are referring to when we do so. The question is not whether or not the Bible distinguishes Israel from Israel, for instance, but what it means to be the two kinds of Israel. In other words, it is not sufficient to point out that the Bible makes the bare distinction: the critic of FV must show that the meaning the Bible gives to the distinction is different than what FVers give to it. (I’ll give an interpretation of the FV view below.)
3. Further, I don’t think anyone disagrees with your claim that reprobates within the covenant (assuming this is what you meant by “hypocrites”
are not part of the covenant in the same way that the elect are. I can be even more confident if we limit ourselves to Wilson and Wilkins (probably the two key FVers in this particular conversation; Wilson b/c he wrote the chapter on vis/invis in the FV book, Wilkins b/c he’s actually PCA) and say that these two men definitely don’t disagree with this claim. We can certainly say that “not all Israel is Israel.” The question, again, is “Does this difference between the members of Israel amount to the difference between the invisible and visible Church, or is the invis/vis distinction talking about something (at least slightly) different?” I think FVers would affirm the latter disjunct in that question.
4 and 5. I think these are related, or at least it seems best to me to answer them in one piece.
First of all, I don’t mean to erect any straw men of your position. I think I see better now what you are wanting to say, and so as I said under (1) above so I say here: sorry for misunderstanding you.
As I said above, I think the disagreement is over what the two senses of Church are, not that there are two senses. Your view, if I am now understanding it properly, is that the invisible church is all elect believers in Christ, at (or up to?) present. In other words, all elect people who are currently actually trusting in Christ with the God-given faith to which they have been effectually called. So my elect great-grandson who will be born fifty years from now is not a part of the invisible church, even though he is elect. (In other words, up until the eschaton “invisible church” remains a subset of “the elect.”
Who exactly is in this group is something seen (known) only by God. The visible church, on the other hand, is the “worshipping community of elect and reprobate” together. Right now, there is this visible community of people all coming together and worshipping God and claiming to believe in Christ for salvation, etc., but there are many in this community who are not elect to salvation. This community is what we see, hence it is the “visible church.”
What is wrong with this account? Nothing in substance! We can all agree that there are people in the community of faith who have not been effectually called into the same union with Christ as other people. There are two different “realities” among the different people in the Church. We agree that there is a permanent, deeper (or if you prefer “internal”
union with Christ ordained by God which some people have and which others do not. The disagreement is over how we put this all together in terms of “visible” and “invisible” Church. The dispute is not over whether there is such a thing as the “invisible church”, nor is it over whether there are elect people in the Church who have all sorts of benefits that the non-elect in the Church don’t possess. Rather the dispute is over whether the latter group DEFINES “invisible Church.”.
Suppose that Wilson or Wilkins (or I myself) put forward this breakdown of the two senses of Church, roughly parallel to the one in your article:
1. The Church refers to the visible community of faith, which has been gifted by God with the power of the Gospel, the means of grace in the Word preached and the sacraments rightly administered, the authority to discipline, etc.
2. This Church has both elect and reprobate in it.
3. The elect have certain blessings within the Church that go beyond those the reprobate receive from it.
4. The elect within the Church may therefore be set apart and called “the Church.”
5. This last use of “Church,” inclusive of all the elect who will ever come into the Church, is what we should mean when we say “invisible Church”.
I ask honestly: where is the heresy in this? It looks like this is simply a disagreement over the precise definition of the two senses of Church, and a disagreement as to which sense is the “more strictly correct” sense. (You start from invisible and derive a sense of visible; FVers do the opposite.) But the basic distinctions you are making between elect and reprobate are still in tact no matter which breakdown we use, aren’t they?
As to why we should accept one over the other, the sixth and final objection you list in your article really is helpful here, I think. WCF 25 seems to define the invisible church as the whole company of the elect, past present and future. (so in line with my (5) above) On this definition the only way we can say that the invisible church exists “now” is in the mind of God, or perhaps as the Minnesota Twins exist even though all their future players aren’t members yet. (But, notice that this Twins organization that exists now is highly VISIBLE.) In other words, what exists now is the community of faith that has been given those things I mentioned in my (1) just above. This IS “the Church” (in the more strict sense). At a later time, this same Church will contain nothing but the elect, and all the elect. And right now, of course, this Church contains some of the elect—and these elect are the ones who “really get it”. It’s just that those people who are “really getting it” aren’t what Westminster seems to mean by “invisible Church”. Rather, all the elect people who are currently alive and in the Church make up ONLY A SUBSET of the WCF 25 notion of “invisible church.” The elect in the Church right now are all MEMBERS of the invisible church (since they are elect), but they do not CONSTITUTE the invisible church. In other words, “elect people currently in the Church” isn’t the same thing as “invisible church.” But there certainly are elect people currently in the Church, and there certainly is an “invisible Church” which includes them but also includes others (like elect people who haven’t yet been coverted, or even born).
Your article really didn’t deal with this argument from WCF 25 adequately, I don’t think. You didn’t quote it directly so it wasn’t clear how arguments like Wilson’s are supposed to work, and your own counter-argument was thus too facile and unclear as well.
Okay, I’ll leave it at that! Thanks for your time.
Xon said,
January 6, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Here’s Doug Wilson on his blog just yesterday, though I didn’t read this post until writing my previous comment. He seems to confirm my interpretation of his view:
“This is how A.A. Hodge handles it, following Westminster.”Our Confession teaches in these sections . . . that there is a collective body, compirsing all the elect of God of all nations and generations, called the Church invisible” (The Confession of Faith, p. 311). He adds that “this entire body . . . has been constantly present to the mind of God from eternity” (p. 311). This is the sense in which Steve Wilkins affirms the invisible church, as do I. Defining the invisible church this way does not exclude affirming that at any given moment, there are a fixed number of effectually called people alive on the earth. I have always believed there is such a body — but it had never occured to me to call that body the invisible church. In my mind, the invisible church has always been defined in the Westminsterian sense, the “whole number of the elect” sense.” (emphasis added)
David Gadbois said,
January 6, 2007 at 6:13 pm
“I have always believed there is such a body — but it had never occured to me to call that body the invisible church. In my mind, the invisible church has always been defined in the Westminsterian sense, the “whole number of the elect” sense.”
Indeed, Xon. And this has not “occured” to you guys because you have not read widely enough on the matter nor been under disciplined seminary training.
And is not WLC’s comments on the invisible church also the “Westminsterian” sense? Lane’s view admits both senses, but Wilkin’s does not. That’s why Lane is confessional, and Wilkins is not. Wilkins cannot say that “all Israel is not Israel”, he can only say “all Israel won’t be all Israel at the eschaton.” Insofar as he denies the presence of the invisible church on earth (which he went out of his way to do) he cannot be in accord with the WLC. Lane’s view can synthesize both WCF and WLC. Wilkins’ paradigm has to throw WLC under the bus in holding to WCF.
Xon said,
January 6, 2007 at 7:34 pm
“Insofar as he denies the presence of the invisible church on earth (which he went out of his way to do) he cannot be in accord with the WLC.”
Under what definition of “invisible church”? Under Wilkins’ definition of “invisible church,” of course he denies its presence here on earth, and so do you I’m sure. Under Westminster’s definition of “invisible church”, then of course Wilkins affirms that it is here. There is, right now, a bunch of elect people living on earth who have already been effectually called to faith in Christ. This is your definition of “invisible church”, and who can deny the reality of what you are describing? It is just the theological label that is under dispute.
The second paragraph of that comment is ad hom nonsense, and I won’t dignify it with a response.
greenbaggins said,
January 6, 2007 at 7:40 pm
On the contrary, Xon, the invisible church is most definitely here on earth. Don’t assume our answers or put words in our mouths, Xon.
Todd said,
January 6, 2007 at 9:00 pm
“On the contrary, Xon, the invisible church is most definitely here on earth.”
Part of it, right? Not all of it?
David Gadbois said,
January 6, 2007 at 10:32 pm
“Under Westminster’s definition of “invisible church”, then of course Wilkins affirms that it is here.”
Let’s review, shall we?
“the invisible Church does not yet exist though it is surely foreordained by God and will surely and certainly exist at the last day (but then of course, it will exist as a very visible body). It is only “invisible” in that we can’t see all the members of it now.”
The ONLY way it is invisible is in that we can’t see all the members now. So he makes this epistemological (”seeing”
rather than ontological. It “does not yet exist.”
This is buttressed by his other comments:
“It is important for us to recognize the fact of the mixed nature of the Church in history, but this does not mean that there is such a thing as an “invisible Church” of which you must become a member.”
Todd said,
January 6, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Like I said, I don’t think it’s helpful to say that it doesn’t exist, but I don’t need to give all that much benefit of the doubt to suspect I know what Wilkins means. You don’t believe the whole thing exists yet, either. Right?
In the last thing you quote, though, Wilkins is being confessional in a specific area in which you and Lane are not. You don’t “join” the numbert of the elect.
Xon said,
January 7, 2007 at 12:30 am
Oops! Typo! I said “Under Westminster’s definition of “invisible church”, then of course Wilkins thinks it is here.” What I meant was “Under your (David G and Lane’s) definition of “invisible church”….” I understand why that caused confusion.
On this particular issue of the invisible church (as opposed to the debate over words like “elect”), Wilkins’ argument is not that he is using “invisible church” in a broader way than the Confession, but rather that he is simply using the Confession’s defintion and you guys are missing that definition. There is a disagreement as to what the Confession’s definition of “invisible church” even is. So what I mean to oppose in that earlier comment was Wilkins’ definition of it, and David and Lane’s definition of it. Leave Westminster’s definition out of it in that particular comment, since that definition is under dispute.
Lane, I guess I should apologize for putting words in your mouth. But I am genuinely puzzled as to how you would not agree with Wilkins that the invisible church is not here right now on Wilkins’ definition of “invisible church.” Do you believe that the whole company of the elect, past present and future, exists right now? Well, that’s Wilkins’ definition! (Which he thinks is also the Confession’s definition, but again leave that aside for now).
If I asked you “Lane, do you believe that the blark is here on earth?” You would ask “I dunno, Xon, what’s the meaning of ‘blark’?” Suppose I say, “”Blark ‘ is the entire company of every person whom God has predestined for eternal glory from the foundation of the world.” I assume your answer to my original question would be “No.” ?? Well, now substitute “invisible church” for “blark.”
David Gadbois said,
January 7, 2007 at 1:30 am
“In the last thing you quote, though, Wilkins is being confessional in a specific area in which you and Lane are not. You don’t “join” the numbert of the elect.”
Again, in which sense ‘join’. If Lane and I are right on the dual sense, then we can affirm that in one sense and not in another.
greenbaggins said,
January 7, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Of course, part of the invisible church is here on earth. But the WCF uses the word “consists,” present tense. It exists now, though not completely. The number of the elect, which is fixed, is continually coming up to that fixed point of God’s total. I feel as if Todd and Xon think that the invisible church cannot exist unless and until all the members of it are present and accounted for. It exists now, both completely in the mind of God, and partially here in history. That distinction, by good and necessary consequence, means that the number of the elect is being filled until the full number is harvested.
The reason I disagree with Wilkins on whether this church exists is because I simply don’t agree with his definition of he invisible church. I *disagree* with it, because the WCF *disagrees* with it. It will not help, therefore, for you to say that I should look at this from Wilkins’s point of view, and that, on his definition, the invisible church does not yet exist, because it is his very definition of the invisible church that is in dispute here.
And Todd, if you’re not going to engage in my exposition of questions 64-67 of the LC, that’s fine. But then stop spinning your wheels, saying the same thing about not joining the invisible church. The discussion cannot progress unless you are willing to engage that exegesis of the questions.
Todd said,
January 7, 2007 at 3:10 pm
“I feel as if Todd and Xon think that the invisible church cannot exist unless and until all the members of it are present and accounted for.”
Don’t trust your feelings, man. I’ve already said that I think that what Wilkins said was unhelpful.
I don’t disagree with tnything you’ve written about the LC questions, except the leap you make into saying that the invisible church is therefore something you join. The standards simply don’t say it like this. Not once.
greenbaggins said,
January 7, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Question 66: “What is that union which the elect have with Christ? A. The union which the elect have with Christ is the work of God’s grace, whereby they are spiritually and mystically, yet really and inseparably, joined to Christ as their head and husband; which is done in their effectuall calling.” Now, there is plainly an inseparable joining that occurs when the elect are regenerated. That joining is to Christ, their head. Head of what? Head of the invisible Church. Therefore, people, in a sense, do join the invisible church. QED
Todd said,
January 7, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Too silly. Joined to Christ at a specific moment through effectual calling — who denies this? But you’re reading a completely different concept into this, “joining the invisible church,” which, I’ll never grow tired of reminding you, is equivalent to saying “joining the number of the elect.”
David Gadbois said,
January 7, 2007 at 11:12 pm
Todd, I suggest that you read over DW’s post. Notice that he recognizes Berkhof’s use of the term invisible church as “the number of the regenerate”. So if we admit two senses, one being the number of regenerate, the other being the number of elect, your criticism of Lane does not follow. If even Wilson sees this, and you don’t, you should stop for a moment and consider that you are on the kooky side of FV.
Todd said,
January 8, 2007 at 5:40 am
But Wilson is clear about the single Westminster meaning. He’s open to other stipulated definitions, of course, but he read the WS the same way I do.
pduggie said,
January 8, 2007 at 9:14 am
“But the WCF uses the word “consists,” present tense. It exists now, though not completely. ”
But what kind of a thing is it? The set of integers consists of all negative and positive whole numbers. But because numbers are not concrete entities, the integers exist as abstract concepts in the minds of humans and God.
The generation of Americans in 2097 consists of all children born in the year 2097. This generation consists of them, but they don’t exist yet. They exist conceptually, but not actually.
What in the WCFs definition of the set of all the elect mandates that the set exist as a concrete entity that meets that defintion now?
David Gadbois said,
January 8, 2007 at 10:38 am
“Too silly. Joined to Christ at a specific moment through effectual calling — who denies this? But you’re reading a completely different concept into this, “joining the invisible church,” which, I’ll never grow tired of reminding you, is equivalent to saying “joining the number of the elect.”
This is a monument to circularity. It is only “equivalent” to saying that if we already grant your faulty premise (and don’t hold to a dual-sense here).
If we are indeed joined to Christ, in time and space, through effectual calling, then it follows that since we are joined to the Head/Husband in time and space, we must be joined to the Body of Christ/Bride in time as well.
So the first part of your statement fails to deal with this “good and necessary” consequence of Lane’s exegesis of WLC altogether, and the latter part of the statement is a throw-away circular argument.
Todd said,
January 8, 2007 at 10:43 am
“If we are indeed joined to Christ, in time and space, through effectual calling, then it follows that since we are joined to the Head/Husband in time and space, we must be joined to the Body of Christ/Bride in time as well.”
But this is only relevant to the invisible church as it’s defined in the WS if it’s reasonable to say that we’re “joined to” the *whole* number of the elect.
Are you comfortable saying that, David? Were you *joined to* the whole number of the elect when you were called?
David Gadbois said,
January 8, 2007 at 10:43 am
“What in the WCFs definition of the set of all the elect mandates that the set exist as a concrete entity that meets that defintion now?”
The recent “Larger Catechism and the Invisible Church” thread answers this.
David Gadbois said,
January 8, 2007 at 10:48 am
“But this is only relevant to the invisible church as it’s defined in the WS if it’s reasonable to say that we’re “joined to” the *whole* number of the elect.”
Again, you are just going in circles trying to reinforce your single-sense paradigm. It is, rather, reasonable to say that we’re joined to the whole number of the regenerate (second sense). Lane and I have gone to pains, in the “Larger Catechism” thread to show that WLC uses this second sense as well.
Todd said,
January 8, 2007 at 11:03 am
“It is, rather, reasonable to say that we’re joined to the whole number of the regenerate (second sense).”
Right. I love it. Very reasonable. Of course, this is not the WS’s definition of the invisible church.
Todd said,
January 8, 2007 at 11:06 am
” Lane and I have gone to pains, in the “Larger Catechism” thread to show that WLC uses this second sense as well.”
The WLC certainly talks from this perspective, but it never defines the invisible church from this perspective. Not once.
greenbaggins said,
January 8, 2007 at 11:12 am
On comment 36, LC questions 64-67 make the following equations: invisible church=elect=union with Christ=joined to Christ=effectual calling=regeneration. This chain is unbreakable, Todd. Therefore, your conclusion is wrong.
Todd said,
January 8, 2007 at 11:15 am
“elect=union with Christ”
No way. Many of the elect are not joined to Christ yet. Many of these don’t exist yet. But they are still already part of the invisible church, as it is defined in the WS.
Todd said,
January 8, 2007 at 11:19 am
Lane, can I ask you again to point me to where you’ve listed the NT occurrences of the word “church” which you believe to refer to the invisble church exclusively?
greenbaggins said,
January 8, 2007 at 11:19 am
All of the elect will at some point be united to Christ, Todd. That’s what I mean.
greenbaggins said,
January 8, 2007 at 11:21 am
Todd, just read the WCF’s prooftexts on question 64 of the LC and on chapter 25.1 of the WCF. That’s a start. I’m sure there’s more. But I agree that those proof-texts support the definition of the invisible church.
Todd said,
January 8, 2007 at 11:23 am
“All of the elect will at some point be united to Christ, Todd. That’s what I mean.”
Your equal signs are equivocating then, man.
greenbaggins said,
January 8, 2007 at 11:27 am
In what way, Todd?
Todd said,
January 8, 2007 at 11:34 am
“On comment 36, LC questions 64-67 make the following equations: invisible church=elect=union with Christ=joined to Christ=effectual calling=regeneration.”
The first “=” is a real “=”. The invisible church just is the elect. It’s a definition.
But the second one is carrying a very different meaning. The elect are not defined by their union with Christ; that would be Arminian. The second “=” must mean something like “will eventually become.”
That’s equivocation.
David Gadbois said,
January 8, 2007 at 11:47 am
“The WLC certainly talks from this perspective, but it never defines the invisible church from this perspective. Not once.”
The problem you are adopting here is the idea that, if WLC is going to “define” something, it has to put it explicitly (”the invisible church consists of…” formula). But WLC defines it through description as well. So you are going to have to deal with those things Lane and I have brought up before you can keep repeating this statement.
Todd, you are probably the only one here who understood lane’s comment as following formal symbolic logic. If you follow what WLC is saying here, “=” does not mean “this category is equivalent to this other category.” It means that there is an unbreakable logical connection.
Lane is not making these concepts into synonyms, but rather is showing that they are all tied together.
greenbaggins said,
January 8, 2007 at 11:58 am
BOQ The elect are not defined by their union with Christ; that would be Arminian. EOQ This is only true if one admits the FV definition of union with Christ, which is Arminian, indeed. But the LC says this: “the members of the invisible church by Christ enjoy union and communion with him in grace and glory.” How in the world is that different from saying that the elect=union with Christ? By union, the LC means full, true, permanent (grace *and* glory) union with Christ. Not Arminian, Todd.
Todd said,
January 8, 2007 at 12:01 pm
“just read the WCF’s prooftexts on question 64 of the LC and on chapter 25.1 of the WCF.”
This gives us just three or four occurrences in Ephesians.
Todd said,
January 8, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Lane, you’ve missed my point. If union with Christ is part of the definition of elect, no one is elect until they’re united to Christ.
Todd said,
January 8, 2007 at 12:08 pm
“Lane is not making these concepts into synonyms, but rather is showing that they are all tied together.”
OK. But the first two terms are synonyms.
greenbaggins said,
January 8, 2007 at 12:26 pm
Todd, you didn’t read very carefully, did you? It gives us Col 1:18, John 10:16, John 11:52 as well as the several instances in Eph.
With regard to 49, you are confusing the eternal decree perspective with how it’s played out in history. God defines the elect as all those who will come into union with Christ by faith. From that perspective, all the elect are always elect, and they don’t join the elect. In time, however, the elect are united with Christ, and become what they were always meant to be.
Todd said,
January 8, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Lane, you didn’t read my question very carefully, did you? I was asking about occurrences of the actual word “church.” Colossians is a real correction, but not the John passages.
David Gadbois said,
January 8, 2007 at 10:45 pm
“I was asking about occurrences of the actual word “church.”
You’ve already lost, Todd. The handful Lane has supplied by now is more than enough (one is enough). Valiant effort, though, as usual.
Todd said,
January 9, 2007 at 11:16 am
Lost? There was no challenge, David. It was a request for info. I had said, “Lane, can I ask you again to point me to where you’ve listed the NT occurrences of the word “church” which you believe to refer to the invisble church exclusively?”
greenbaggins said,
January 9, 2007 at 11:19 am
Todd, reread Wes’s paper. As long as you don’t make the word-concept fallacy, then all the exegesis of those passages also counts: 1 John 2:19, Romans 2:28-29, John 10:26-27. The word “church” isn’t there, but the concept sure is.
H.S. Parvath Gowda said,
February 21, 2007 at 4:26 am
wonderful thanks for good definition on visible and invisible church
greenbaggins said,
February 21, 2007 at 10:26 am
You are welcome (even though I didn’t write this paper). Welcome to my blog.
Todd said,
April 6, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Response by Doug Wilson:
http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=3761
In theological debate, how important is it to be careful to summarize an opponent’s position in a way that he would be comfortable affirming?
greenbaggins said,
April 6, 2007 at 5:54 pm
I have already answered this, Todd. Many FV guys look at any criticism whatsoever as a misunderstanding of their position. The question, then, is this: is the criticism accurate, or not? If it is accurate, it is still quite possible for the person critiqued to say “You don’t understand me.” That person is deluded, and was understood perfectly well, but they will still scream out misrepresentation. This happened quite a bit with Guy Waters’s book. The problem here is methodological double-speak, where contradictory ideas are affirmed so that “all the bases are covered.” What Wilkins says in one area, for instance, is contradicted by what he says elsewhere.
Todd said,
April 6, 2007 at 6:02 pm
I’ll look forward to your interaction with Wilson, then.
Andy Gilman said,
April 6, 2007 at 8:19 pm
Doug Wilson posted something on Scott Clark’s blog back in early January regarding the visible/invisible church distinction. Here’s something I wrote to another forum after that exchange:
Doug Wilson:
[begin quote]
…if you want to have the invisible church existing “in history,” in a way that is distinct from the visible church, then you are out of accord with the Confession. That is because the invisible church “consists of the whole number of the elect.” A partial number of the elect is not the invisible church because it is not the whole number of them. It would make sense to speak of the whole number of the truly regenerate at this moment of 2007, but this is just a partial congregation within the invisible church. It is a subset of the invisible church, not the invisible church itself — just as Christ Church here in Moscow is a congregation within the visible church; we are a subset.
If the invisible church includes the whole number of the elect, then it exists right now in the mind of God. I affirm this, as does Wilkins. If you want it to exist right now in history, then you have to do something about the “whole number of the elect,” which includes current atheists who will be converted tomorrow and saints yet unborn. In short, you cannot have the invisible church, as the WCF defines it, in history. You can have a invisible congregation of the invisible church, but how helpful is that?
January 4, 2007
[end quote]
According to the WCF definition, says Doug Wilson, the invisible church is an abstraction which exists only in the mind of God. “A partial number of the elect is not the invisible church because it is not the whole number of them.” To speak of anything less than “the whole number of the elect” as the invisible church is contrary to the WCF definition of the invisible church. Yet when the WCF defines the visible church as consisting of “all those throughout the world that profess the true religion,” or when the LC says the visible church is “made up of all such as IN ALL AGES and places of the world do profess the true religion,” Doug seems to have no problem allowing the visible church to exist in history, and to be subdivided. He seems to have no qualms about referring to Christ Church in Moscow (which I’m sure he will allow is not “all those throughout the world that profess the true religion”), as a partial expression of the visible church, without doing injury to Westminster’s definition of “visible church.”
My point is that the “visible church” according to the WCF definition is no less an abstraction than is the “invisible church.” If Doug is going to be consistent he will have to limit himself to talking only about “particular churches,” like Christ Church in Moscow.
But if he takes that logical step, then he should be careful not to talk about the members of his “particular church” enjoying “union and communion” with Christ, because, according to LC 65, “union and communion” with Christ is reserved to those who are members of the invisible church, an entity which doesn’t exist in history according to Doug’s reading of Westminster. It would follow then that “union and communion” with Christ is occurring only in the mind of God, where also the invisible church actually exists. LC 82 and 83 speak of the “communion in glory which members of the invisible church have with Christ,” IN THIS LIFE. So by Doug’s reading of Westminster, we would have members of the invisible church, a thing which doesn’t exist in history, somehow enjoying communion with Christ “in this life.”
Xon said,
April 6, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Andy, your criticism is clever and it probably does require folks like Wilson (and me) to formulate their view a little more carefully.You are right that there is only a subset of the people who comprise the “visible Church” in existence right now, and so in that sense the same argument Wilson makes against speaking of “the invisible Church” existing right now would seem to apply to the “visible Church” as well. But the point of Wilson’s hist/esch formulation is not to focus on subsets and wholes; it is to help us remember that at any given moment there is only one Church, not two. (Unless we disagree with the catholic creeds on this point?) Because it’s a chronological distinction, we’re really talking about two “ages” of the Church. And which “age” are we in right now? The historical age, right. So, in this sense Wilson chooses to say that the “visible Church” exists right now. He’s not saying that every professing believer exists right now, but he is saying that the one Church is in its “visible Church” phase right now. The one and only Church that can ever and will ever exist is currently in the visible/historical phase. Later it will be in its (everlasting) invisible/eschatological phase.
Wilson isn’t denying that there are, right now, people living on Earth who are predestined to be permanently connected to Christ, and also that there are people living on Earth right now who are not so predestined but who nevertheless profess to be believers in Christ. Both kinds of people exist right now. But Wilson is objecting to using the terms “invisible church” and “visible church” to refer to these two kinds of people. He clearly agrees that these two kinds of people exist, though. Which is why he objects to any and all claims that he “denies” the invisible/visible church distinction. Since you guys are all defining “visible” church as all currently living professing believers, and “invisible” church as all currently living people who are predestined to be eternally connected to Christ, then it is simply false to say that Wilson denies the existence of either one of these groups right now. He believes in both of them; he just doesn’t call them by the “vis church” and “invis church” labels like you guys do.
What Wilson wants to call the “visible church” is all those who will ever profess the name of Christ, and at any given moment in history before the eschaton the entity of all such living people is what we call “the Church.” (The visible church is just “the Church” as it exists in history, so that at any given moment we can speak of the visible Church existing at that moment even though it is really only a subset of its members that actually exist at that moment). And he wants to use “invisible Church” as a shorthand label for what “the Church” will look like at the eschaton when the only people who are members of it are genuine eternally connected-to-Christ people.
As a distinction in the Church, Wilson only wants to be chronological (one church, existing in two separate “ages” during which its membership roll is quite different). But when it comes to a distinction among people in the Church right now, he certainly distinguishes between those who are mere professors and those who are actually predestined to eternal life.
So what’s the problem with this? What is the orthodox Reformed doctrine that this view contradicts, Lane (or Andy, or whomever)?
David Gadbois said,
April 7, 2007 at 1:10 am
“As a distinction in the Church, Wilson only wants to be chronological (one church, existing in two separate “ages” during which its membership roll is quite different). But when it comes to a distinction among people in the Church right now, he certainly distinguishes between those who are mere professors and those who are actually predestined to eternal life.
So what’s the problem with this? ”
The problem is that the WLC exists, and it doesn’t allow our conception of the distinction between the visible/invisible church to be one of chronology rather than ontology.
greenbaggins said,
April 7, 2007 at 9:06 am
Andy, brilliant post. Absolutely brilliant. The point of Andy’s post, if I may summarize for a bit here, is that there are people who are part of the church, *in one sense,* who, in another sense, *are not part of the church.* The bit about two churches is really a red herring. it is not relevant to the discussion. The creed says that there is one holy, catholic, apostolic church. However, that church may be viewed from different angles. Militant/eschatological, while a helpful distinction, is *not* the same thing as visible/invisible, contra Wilson, _Federal Vision_, pg. 265. The former distinction is chronological, while the latter is ontological and chronological. The reason for this is that the militant church consists of visibility *and* invisibility. Not all aspects of the militant church are visible. Therefore, this distinction is not the same thing as saying visible/invisible. So, again contra Wilson, the visible/invisible distinction, while present in the NT, was not really invented by Augustine. It was the Reformers who fleshed out this teaching of the NT in defense against Rome (see Wes White’s paper above).
Todd said,
April 7, 2007 at