How Does Jesus Work?

I came across this delightful quotation in J.C. Ryle’s work on John (volume 2, p. 145). Ryle is quoting Christopher Wordsworth, and Anglican bishop who wrote an entire Bible commentary:

God loves to effect His greatest works by means tending under ordinary circumstances to produce the very opposite of what is to be done. God walls the sea with sand. God clears the air with storms. God warms the earth with snow. So in the world of grace. He brings water in the desert, not from the soft earth, but the flinty rock. He heals the sting of the serpent of fire by the serpent of brass. He overthrows the wall of Jericho by ram’s horns. He slays a thousand men with the jawbone of an ass. He cures salt water with salt. He fells the giant with a sling and stone. And thus does the Son of God work in the Gospel. He cures the blind man by that which seemed likely to increase his blindness, by anointing his eyes with clay. He exalts us to heaven by the stumbling block of the cross.

God always seems to use the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, doesn’t He?

167 Comments

  1. April 11, 2016 at 9:24 pm

    Christopher Wordsworth (1807-1885) was the nephew of the famous poet William Wordsworth (1770-1850). Christopher’s Wikipedia page is interesting.

  2. rfwhte said,

    April 12, 2016 at 11:31 am

    Green Baggins: Great! Our God loves irony!

  3. rfwhte said,

    April 12, 2016 at 11:34 am

    Green Baggins: Great! Our God, who justifies the ungodly, loves irony!

  4. paigebritton said,

    April 12, 2016 at 5:58 pm

    Is it really the “flighty” rock, not the “flinty” rock?

  5. roberty bob said,

    April 15, 2016 at 9:48 am

    “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does; for the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.” — John 5:19-21

    This, coming from the mouth of our Lord himself, is the best statement on what Jesus does and how he does it.

  6. Kevin said,

    April 15, 2016 at 2:41 pm

    Robert bob, and what makes what He does so amazing, is the free acceptance we have in thel gospel, what He did. Something already accomplished on the cross. The gospel is told and believed, not done, thats why we who believe that God justifies the ungodly in a one time declaration have present tense peace and infalible assurance, because it is dependent solely on what He did. God stills the sea with the sand to show his glory. And God shows Hid in what He already did for us. He gives it as a free gift, no strings attached. K

  7. roberty bob said,

    April 16, 2016 at 10:25 am

    “The gospel is told and believed, not done . . . .” — Kevin

    “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.” — John 14:12

    Jesus is the ongoing doer of the Father’s will. Anyone who has faith becomes a doer of the Lord’s will as well, doing the same kind of God-glorifying acts that Jesus himself did.

    So, the gospel of Jesus is told and believed; then, it is done [lived out] by those who have faith in Jesus. Jesus says so. What we believers do does not diminish the unique finished work of Jesus; it magnifies it, and brings glory to the Father in the name of the Son.

  8. Kevin said,

    April 16, 2016 at 4:01 pm

    “Repent and BELIEVE in the gospel” Mark 1:15. There is a special place for those who would add one thing to Christ’s gospel. Dont think the Federal vision guys who pervert His gospel will be exempt, no matter what their intelectual acumen.. You have been put on notice from an Evangelist of the gospel. K

  9. roberty bob said,

    April 18, 2016 at 9:30 am

    All who repent and believe the gospel are exhorted by the beloved Apostle Paul to walk in a manner that is worthy of that same gospel. Those who walk thusly are not adding to the gospel as you claim, Kevin, nor are they perverting the gospel.

    In posts #5 and #7 I have presented some marvelous sayings of our Lord Jesus that are relevant to the question “How does Jesus work?”

    On and on you go, Kevin, reminding me of that special place prepared for those who add one thing to Christ’s gospel. Why does it trouble you that someone like me delights in the words of Jesus from John 5 and John 14? You should delight in them, too!

  10. Kevin said,

    April 18, 2016 at 12:52 pm

    Roberty bob said ” why does it trouble you that someone like me delights in the words of Jesus in John 5 and John 14.” I have no trouble with anyone that delights in the words of Jesus or the commandments of God. We should. But I have trouble that our justification in some way is based on our flawed and incomplete obedience. If you are a Pastor, as you say you are, what comfort can you give a believer in your church who struggles with extended bouts with sins like masturbation or drug use, or lust etc. Are you going to tell them their final acceptance before God will be based on the life lived. Your Roman Catholic view is directly related to your failure to understand your utter moral bankrupcy, and the requirement of the Law. Jesus said if you even lust in your mind you committ adultry. The law requires perfect, personal, and perpetual obedience. Your view is foolish Roberty bob. Paul says it doesnt depend on the one who wills or runs, but on God, solely on the sufficient merits of Christ ALONE, beggining to end. Christ merits are applied to us thru faith, and nothing we do. But you would mix your merit with His by saying in some way man is predestined to glory in some way by something other than just the goodness and mercy of God. Pastors will incure a stricter judgment. Beeare!

  11. roberty bob said,

    April 18, 2016 at 11:06 pm

    What do I say to comfort the believer who struggles with besetting sins?

    Our savior Jesus Christ died for our sins in order to deliver us from the enslaving sins of this evil age.

    Our savior Jesus Christ understands our struggles because he also was tempted to sin; he was acquainted with every kind of temptation known to us sinners, yet without himself actually sinning.

    God sent Jesus into the world not to condemn us for being sinners and for having sinned, but to save us — yes, forgive us and free us! — from f sin’s guilt and power so that sin no longer has dominion over us.

    Our savior Jesus died for our sins on the cross; his blood was shed for us, a sacrifice of atonement acceptable to the Father — a satisfaction for sin as he paid the debt we had accrued.

    When Jesus died, he died to sin so that sin no longer could claim dominion over him; and then he was raised to life so that he could live evermore unto God. We who struggle with sin need to consider our selves “in Christ” — being like unto him: dead to sin, under no obligation to serve sin anymore since Christ has rescued us from sin’s dominion; and also raised with Christ so that we might henceforth do all of our living unto God. How is this possible? God has poured out his Holy Spirit into our hearts and turned our stubborn God-resistant hearts of stone into hearts of flesh that are willing to do what is good and pleasing to the Lord.

    We who are believers can count on Christ to help us in the hour of temptation. By faith we watch and pray that we fall not into temptation. We ask for strength. We arm ourselves for battle against the Evil One. By God’s grace we obey. And when we fail, we confess our sins in the assurance that our God is gracious and compassionate, and willing to forgive us for the sake of his Son — who also intercedes for us that our faith will not fail.

    “Your faith has saved you. Go and sin no more.” — Jesus

    * I meet wit the struggler; I seek to understand his or her struggle; I pray with them and for them in their presence; I remind them of the Lord’s steadfast love; I assure them that in Christ we have the power / the spiritual resources to triumph in the struggle; I find Christian brothers or sisters who can help the struggler bear his or her burden, and hold the struggler accountable.

  12. Kevin said,

    April 21, 2016 at 11:45 am

    Roberty bob ” those who walk thustly are not adding to the gospel as you claim” They are if they are adding that walk in any way to a final justification, which you do.

  13. Dennis said,

    April 21, 2016 at 3:17 pm

    Lane,

    Interesting thoughts. Something that I’ve discussed with others is that the Jews were waiting for a King who would conquer and Jesus came to the world in a barn laid in a place where animals eat.

    The Jews wanted someone who would vanquish their enemy and Jesus came and vanquished Satan.

    Jesus conquers death by dying.

    The life of Christ…to be a Priest, Prophet, and King is not to live a life of excess but to live a life of humility.

  14. April 21, 2016 at 8:27 pm

    Roberty Bob: Of course, sin had never *had* a claim over Jesus.

  15. roberty bob said,

    April 21, 2016 at 10:55 pm

    To Kevin at number twelve . . .

    Every Christian I know believes in a final judgement at which they will be judged according to their works — whether good or bad. This fact is beyond dispute. Every Christian I know is motivated by this fact to walk worthy of the gospel by doing good. This pleases the Lord. They are living out their faith, as one would expect. As I have said, such persons are not adding to the gospel; they are simply living according to the gospel. Christ and the Apostles exhort us time and again to put our faith into practice, sow to please the Spirit, reap a harvest of righteousness, etc.

    Do you have a problem with this?

    “He went about doing good.” — Acts 10:38

  16. Kevin said,

    April 22, 2016 at 9:07 am

    Roberty bob ” what did Jesus mean in John 5:24 we have passed out of judgment when we believe. You continue to purport that God is going to weigh the goods and the bads in the end and in some way that will determine our fate. Im just calling you out for what you are, a member of the Roman Catholic religion that raised its ugly head in the 4th century, where eating the eucharist became a way of ” attaining” salvation. Salvation is a gift of God. From beginning to end. For you to say that it depends on our incomplete obedience in some way is a false gospel. The gospel is told and believed, not done. K

  17. roberty bob said,

    April 22, 2016 at 7:09 pm

    “You [a reference to me] continue to purport that God is going to weigh the goods and the bads in the end and in some way that will determine our fate.” — Kevin said

    Jesus: “render to every one according to his works” — Matthew 16:27

    This truth is supported by Paul [Romans 2:6,7; 2 Corinthians 5:10] and Peter [1 Peter 1:17].

    This truth, and the reward or gift God promises motivates the faithful to do what is good and pleasing to the Lord. “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, God will give eternal life” (Romans 2:7).

    But you say that I need to repent of my persistence in doing good while seeking glory, honor,and immortality. You say that it is sinful for me to do what Jesus and the Apostles encourage all of us to do.

    Every true believer in Jesus does pass from death to life upon believing in Jesus. Every true believer, now alive “in Christ,” follows Jesus. He walks as Jesus walked, persisting in doing good while seeking glory, honor, and immortality — with the view of attaining the prize. “I press on,” says Paul, “in order to win the prize.” Salvation is at once gift & reward — present possession and future hope!

    It’s the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. “He who perseveres to the end will be saved.”

  18. Kevin said,

    April 23, 2016 at 3:46 pm

    Roberty bob, thats right doing your good works to be justified are filthy rags.. Thats what I said. Paul counted ALL his righteouness dung. You seem to think yours is pleasing to God. K

  19. roberty bob said,

    April 23, 2016 at 9:35 pm

    Do you really believe that God is not pleased with people who live by faith, love the Lord with all of their heart, and live in a Christ-like manner?

    Why would Paul, of all people, encourage the saints to find out what pleases the Lord, and then to do what pleases the Lord, if God is not pleased with anything we do? The truth is that God tells us what it is that pleases Him; and all of the things that please Him are possible by faith.

    Brighten Up, Kevin.

  20. Kevin said,

    April 24, 2016 at 9:56 am

    ” BUT NOW APART FROM THE LAW ” You will have no excuse. He shares his glory with no one. Thanks for the discussion. K

  21. roberty bob said,

    April 24, 2016 at 12:16 pm

    God’s way of salvation has always been by grace through faith. All of the Old Testament saints believed God’s gracious promises, and put their faith in Him. God, in His grace, gave His covenant people Israel His law; the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). Israel, however, pursued the righteousness of the law without — or apart from — faith. Thus the law became a death-dealing curse unto them rather than a life-lifting blessing. Our Lord Jesus bore the curse when he died on the cross. He broke the power of the curse, and opened the door to the way of life for all who live by faith. God’s law and commandment is now a blessing for the faithful. We obey God’s law through the indwelling power of Christ’s Spirit, doing every good thing.

    “Blessed are those whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the Lord. Blessed are they who keep his statutes and seek him with all of their heart.” — Psalm 119:1-2

    “You are good, and what you do is good; teach me you decrees.”
    — Psalm 119:68

    “Great peace have they who love your law, and nothing can make them stumble.” — Psalm 119:165

    See! The righteous love God’s law, and they trust the Lord to teach them how to walk accordingly. Those who live this way live in keeping with the purpose for which they were created. Psalm 119 does not describe the self-righteous, who are cursed and damned, but the God-righteous, who are blessed.

    Well . . . ?

  22. Kevin said,

    April 25, 2016 at 12:37 am

    ” Israel pursued a righteouness of the law apart from faith” Paul eliminates all law, even grace enabled works. Your gospel of gracious merit is not the gospel of scripture. In Romans 2 Paul continues the jealousy metaphor that ran through the OT thru Jesus and into Romans. He tells the Jews that believing gentiles ( those who had the law written on their heart and their conscience bore witness ) were better at keeping the law that the unbelieving Jews. Throughout Romans 2 Paul has the Mosaic law in view. There is no new law. He repeats the things of Romans 1, 2:1 ” for you who judge practice the same things” ” 1:30 slanders, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, unloving etc. And now Romans 3:21 ” But now apart from the law” the righteouness has been manifested …. the righteouness of God thru Faith. It cant be the righteouness of the law done in us or then Christ would be the beggining of the law for righteouness, but Christ is the END of the law for righteouness. K

  23. roberty bob said,

    April 25, 2016 at 1:29 am

    So, you are telling me that . . .

    If I believe in Jesus and do no good works, then I am justified by faith because my faith is alone with no add ons.

    But if I believe in Jesus and do good works, then I cannot be justified by faith because I have added works on to my faith.

    Believers in Jesus who love his law and obey his commandments are striving to establish their own righteousness; for this they will be damned because every attempt to obey the law of Christ inevitably fails.

    Jesus obeyed the law so that we won’t have to. Those who desire to obey the law are yielding to sinful desires and have put themselves in danger of damnation.

    I should never quote Psalm 119:1-2 because it is no longer true, if ever it were true in the first place.

    ………

    “Long ago I learned from your statutes that you established them to last forever.” — Psalm 119:152

    If that is true, Kevin, then what do you, the man who stands by faith alone, do with God’s eternal law? Do you obey it? Or do you simply ignore it as non-applicable to your life in Christ? I assume that there are times when you actually obey the Lord. I suppose that I should accuse you of adding works on to your faith whenever you do any good, God-pleasing thing! Maybe you go out of your way to avoid doing any good, God-pleasing thing at all. Why should I care? How you live / what you do really doesn’t matter in the end. Does it?

  24. Kevin said,

    April 25, 2016 at 9:34 am

    ” Jesus obeyed the law so we don’t have too” Thats right in justification Jesus obeyed the law in our place, fulfilled all righteouness and gives it to us as a free gift. Romans 6:23. Here is what Paul said to those doing their works in some way for justification. ” if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.” Salvation is solely by God’s grace thru faith alone. 4:16. Otherwise grace is no longer grace. What profits a man to gain the whole world yet forfiet his soul. God isnt going to share his glory with you Roberty bob. If you add anything you do to gain the acceptance of God, you wont make it according to my bible. ” For they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge, not knowing about the righteouness of God thru faith, they sought to establish their own. Thats you. Jesus said we must like a child, having achieved nothing of valuevor virtue. Pursue holiness and good works, but not compulsory. Repent and BELIEVE the gospel. It is to be believed , not done.

  25. roberty bob said,

    April 25, 2016 at 10:40 am

    “Pursue holiness and good works, but not compulsory.” — Kevin

    You are saying, then, that is not compulsory to obey Jesus by wisely hearing his words and putting them into practice; Jesus does not care if you choose to live foolishly, ignoring his words and not putting them into practice. You can build your house on the rock or on the sand because it makes no difference in the end: Jesus obeyed, so you don’t have to. Your house on the sand may collapse in the flood. Who cares!

    Are you telling me that those who trust in Christ’s atoning blood, and then go on to build their life on the Lord Jesus Christ by putting his words into practice, are trying to establish their own righteousness? Far from it. We are simply following Jesus by being his disciples. You say that keeping Christ’s commandments is self-righteousness. We say that keeping Christ’s commandments is an act of obedience in loving gratitude for saving our lives. Yet, you say that being a disciple is non-compulsory for the professing Christian? Is that what your Bible says?

  26. Kevin said,

    April 26, 2016 at 9:27 am

    Roberty bob, you can continue to be obtuse if you want, but you know what I mean by no compulsory service. You have already said that we will be judged by our works in regards to justification. You are no Reformed pastor. And if you are, how are you allowed to stay in the puplit? How is someone teaching pelagian gospel allowed to pervert the minds of people? You need a federal impeachment, not a federal vision. Federal vision is just a banner put over the basilica. We all know whats under the banner. For we Reformed baptist types, we are amazed at the affinity these Roman Catholic wannabees have for the beast. There was a time when the confession said Rome was antichrist. I dont think those me got it wrong. Here is my rule, read RC doctrine, believe the opposite, arrive at biblical truth. You dont need another day in the ministry, you need the gospel. I say this out of love for you. All the best Roberty bob. K

  27. Kevin said,

    April 26, 2016 at 9:46 am

    Roberty bob, B.B. Warfield said ” the kingdom of God is gratuity and not aquisition.” K

  28. roberty bob said,

    April 26, 2016 at 10:30 am

    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me. Therefore go and MAKE DISCIPLES of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them TO OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU . . . .”

    Teaching God’s people who have believed in the name of Jesus to obey all that our Lord Jesus has commanded is what pastors are supposed to do. The Bible repeatedly reminds us that we will be judged on the last day according to the works done while living in our bodies, whether good or evil. Each person receives what is his due. This has something to do with our eternal salvation, does it not? The justified by faith have nothing to fear on the last day for the judgment will reveal that they have lived by faith in obedience to all that Jesus commanded. Even so, they along with everyone else will be held to account for their life’s works. That includes you.

    I agree with the BB Warfield quote, by the way.

  29. Kevin said,

    April 26, 2016 at 1:25 pm

    ” Teaching God’s people who have believed in Jesus to obey all God has commanded them to do is what Pastors do” Not as a part of their final acceptance before God! And thats what you do. Sanctification is imperfect in this life and it is NOT a part of someone’s standing before God. Our standing before God is ever and always based on His blood and righteouness, not ours. Even at the Eschaton. God will not judge our works in relationship to our entrance into the kingdom. Our sins have already been forgiven, and our righteouness is in heaven waiting for us. We are perfect in the eyes of God. And any lack in our works in this life is covered by His righteouness. If your people when you teach them the law come away not understanding their salvation is already secure in the promise of God won AT the cross, then you have failed. Scripture says out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. What you have said here I have watched closely for a couple years now. You dont speak the gospel. K

  30. roberty bob said,

    May 16, 2016 at 1:44 pm

    “God will not judge our works in relationship to our entrance into the kingdom.” — Kevin at #29

    So you say. Help me out here. Explain what our Lord Jesus means in the verses cited below. I am listening. It sounds like our King gives to us according to what we have done, and that we who wash our robes are blessed and given the right to life in the City of the King. Tell me how you read this.

    “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.” — Revelation 22:12

    “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.”
    — Revelation 22:14

  31. Kevin said,

    May 16, 2016 at 4:06 pm

    Robert bob, in the first verse, it is true that God will reward our works, but not with justification. Thats solely based on HIS merits alone. The scripture is clear. ” Apart from the law” Romans 10 says that Christ is the END of the law for righteouness. In your RC theory, Christ is the beginning of the law for righteouness. Your confusing the “for us” with the “in us”, the fatal error of the medieval church. And the second verse is descriptive. Who would deny the one who God calls to faith and repentance havent washed their robes. Paul says ” the righteous shall LIVE by faith ” He calls christians righteous. Have you ever thought about that. At no time in this life am I inherently righteous, yet he says I am. K

  32. roberty bob said,

    May 16, 2016 at 9:44 pm

    I take it, then, Kevin, that you regard all works done in faith by Christian believers as works of the law that have nothing to do with justification.

    I regard all works done in faith by Christian believers as pleasing to God because everything that flows out of faith — every good work that is in accord with God’s law — pleases the Lord and will be duly rewarded at His coming. Why? It is because the justified who live by faith obey the Lord in doing every good work that He commands; the justified by faith bring forth every kind of good fruit. These fruitful works are called for, and thus they are rendered unto the Lord out of loving gratitude for all that He has done for them.

    At least we are in agreement that God will reward our works. And of course our works are the gospel fruit of the indwelling Christ sanctifying us by His Holy Spirit.

    So, the Lord says that you are inherently righteous, does He? Well, then, if the Lord says that you are inherently righteous, then you ought to believe it to be so. How so? You are in Christ, and Christ is in you.

    OK, then, here is my question. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. I agree. Christ is King, and His Administration is based on Grace and Truth. Nonetheless, Christ the King calls us to obedience so that we observe and do all that He has commanded. I do not believe that when we obey all that Christ has commanded that we are putting ourselves under the former administration of The Law. I do not believe that when we obey all that Christ has commanded that we are trying to win the Lord’s favor or earn our justification through self-righteous works. I do believe that the gospel call to live by faith is a call to obey Christ our King. To live by faith is to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel; it is to trust and obey. Do you agree?

  33. Kevin said,

    May 16, 2016 at 10:30 pm

    Roberty bob ” Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteouness” You see any works or merit in that verse RB? I mean I dont know how read Paul saying vociferously says ” to the one who does not work”. God justifies and ungodly man who does not work. Think about that RB. Think hard. As pleasing as our works might be to God, God does NOT take them into consideration in justification. There is bo qualification saying grace enabled works. All works are excluded All law. Which means all doing. Got it. K

  34. roberty bob said,

    May 16, 2016 at 11:37 pm

    “God does not take them into consideration in justification.” — Kevin

    OK. Very well. But God does take them into consideration at the final judgement, as the prophets, Christ, and the apostles attest. Since God takes them into consideration at the final judgement, our works must matter before the Lord with regard to the summing up of all things. You say that our works are not taken into consideration in justification. OK> In what way, then, or for what purpose does God take them into consideration? If all works are excluded, then why will the Lord bring them up for examination at the Last Day if they carry now weight in the final outcome? That’s what I want to know.

    The same Apostle Paul who vociferously says “to the one who does not work” says “but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous” (Romans 2:13). Those who only hear the law are not righteous in God’s sight, but those who hear the law and obey the law are reckoned as righteous according to Paul. Paul also said that “to those who by persisence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, God will give eternal life” (Romans 2:7). Everyone — Jew and Gentile alike — are included in “to those who . . . !” So, I ask myself, who in the world will persist in doing good while seeking glory, honor, and immortality? I answer, those who have a true and living faith; those who have received the saving grace to persist in this way. What will be the end result for those who persist in doing good? God will give to them eternal life. Paul says so. It’s undeniable that God takes into account the doing of good. It’s undeniable that there is a link between those who persist in doing good AND God giving eternal life to those who persist.

    What say you to that? Am I misreading what Paul plainly says in Romans 2? If so, explain to me what I am missing. Explain it to me without dragging me through medieval Rome. Please.

  35. Kevin said,

    May 17, 2016 at 9:14 am

    Roberty bob, the outcome was decided at the cross, not by the life lived. He is my substitute. Im not accumulating righteouness thru my works, the law. He is my righteousness. ” for by one man’s obedience many will be constituted righteous ” Paul says it this way, not having a righteous of my own thru the law, but the righteouness that come by faith. That is the righteouness of Christ. Sorry Roberty bob, God wil not let you participate in your justification by your works. You will meet the same fate as the Jews in Romans 9:32- 10:4. K

  36. roberty bob said,

    May 17, 2016 at 9:51 am

    Kevin, I am not one bit interested in accumulating righteousness through my own works — to “participate” in my justification by my good works.”

    I have always known that as a sinner I could not save [justify] myself.

    I have believed and continue to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. His death on the cross was a substitutionary atonement, and was the “one righteous act” that rectified what Adam had ruined by his “one sinful act.” My hope and trust is in the righteousness of Christ. The Lord is my righteousness. I have been justified by grace through faith, and I live by faith in the Son of God who gave himself for me.

    I was baptized into Christ, clothed with Christ. I’m a member of a Reformed Church. From infancy I have been discipled [in the great commission way], taught to obey everything that Christ has commanded in order that my professed faith in the Lord will bear much fruit [John 15]. The faith that saves is not alone, but is obedient and fruitful unto good works. I do not boast about any of them. Whatever good I may do is the work of Christ within me, empowered by His grace and Holy Spirit.

    Even though the outcome was decided at the cross, all persons will be summoned to appear before the Lord at the Last Day to receive what is due for all that was done in the body — in the life that had been lived.

    I believe that this will be a day of rejoicing for the JBF, who are found in Christ. Even so, the prospect of this day gives us the incentive to live in a manner worthy of the gospel. We make it our aim to please the Lord.

  37. Kevin said,

    May 17, 2016 at 1:48 pm

    Roberty bob said ” okay, but God does take them into consideration at the final judgment” please write me a diatribe on how you are justified by faith alone, and then say your acceptance will be based on God considering your works. How is that different than Romanist heresy. It aint!

  38. roberty bob said,

    May 17, 2016 at 7:05 pm

    All I have said is what the Bible says repeatedly. Everyone will appear before the judgement seat of Christ to receive what is due for the deeds done in the body. That is Holy Scripture, not heresy. At the Last Day everyone’s works are taken into account for some reason. What is the reason? That’s what I want to know. Why are we going to be given what is due for our works? Why would the Lord give to some ( the doers of good [Romans 2:7] ) eternal life while giving to others ( the self-seeking, truth rejecting, followers of evil [Romans 2:8] ) his wrath?

    Why does Paul, in Romans 2:7, say that the Lord gives to the doers of good eternal life? The doers of evil spoken of in Romans 2:8 are subjected to God’s wrath. So, who are the doers of good mentioned by Paul in Romans 2:7? They would be the justified by faith who live by faith in obedience to their Lord — their faith being fruitful unto good works.

    Doers of good receive eternal life. — Romans 2:7
    Doers of evil are subjected to wrath. — Romans 2:8

    Paul’s words, not mine. Do you agree with the Apostle Paul?

  39. Kevin said,

    May 18, 2016 at 9:28 am

    Roberty bob, can you give me your interpretation of John 5:24 please. What does it mean that we have passed out of judgment past tense? Is there a condition there? And what does Paul mean ” who can bring a charge against God’s elect?” What does Paul mean that there is now no condemnation for christians? You must understand christians appearing before God’s judgment in light of having passed out of it and not being condemned, but already justified. Therefore, you cant be right that God will consider our works in justification. For you to trust in your grace enabled works at all is to believe the wrong gospel. It will matter not what label you wear ( reformed), and it will matter not your position. But you will be responsible for teaching your flock a gospel that differs from the one in scripture, the one Paul preached, and the hinge of the Reformation. Plesse dont claim the mantle of 500 years of martyrdom for a gospel you deny with your words. You know well that you do not proclaim the gospel of the reformation. Men and women died for that gospel at the hands of those who piled the rubbish high on the cross. By saying that God will consider our efforts in our final justification is to corrupt faith at its core. Or as Paul says ” law isnt faith”. For if righteouness comes thru the law, Christ died needlessly. K

  40. roberty bob said,

    May 18, 2016 at 12:22 pm

    Now I understand. You do not believe that we justfied Christians will appear before the judgement seat of Christ to receive what is due for the deeds done while living in our bodies.

    Whenever I say that I do believe this, you accuse me of being a gospel denier. To believe that we are given our due for what we have done, whether good or evil, does not corrupt faith at it’s core; it corroborates every truth about the nature and essence of faith: that in trusting the Lord, faith is obedient to Christ and fruitful unto good works. Faith hears the Word and does what the Word says. By Faith it is possible to please God; without Faith it is impossible.

    I believe everything that Jesus said and everything that Paul said.

    When I was saved, Kevin, I passed from death unto life; there is no condemnation because I am in Christ Jesus. Yet, I will still appear before the judgement seat of Christ. As will you.

  41. Kevin said,

    May 18, 2016 at 12:39 pm

    But you believe receiving our due has to do with justification before God and yet Paul puts all works in opposition to faith in justification. Romans 4:16, 11:6, 10:4. Paul specifically says God justifies a wicked man who does NOT work . Yet you deny this by purporting that the deeds done in the body will affect your acceptance into God’s kingom. You continue to smuggle your character into God’a grace. The gospel isn’t go out and do your part. It is told and believed, not done. Mark 1:15 ” repent and believe the gospel ” Bye

  42. roberty bob said,

    May 18, 2016 at 3:30 pm

    “But you [speaking of me] believe receiving our due has to do with justification before God . . . .” — Kevin

    I believe what Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles all say, namely, that everyone [every person who has ever lived a bodily life] will appear before the judgment seat of Christ to receive what is due for the deeds done during their lifetime. I believe that such an event is planned for the Last Day.

    If the Lord gives eternal life to those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality [words of Paul in Romans 2:7], then it follows that doing good (or doing evil) is taken into account for some purpose at that particular time. Therefore, I am asking why the Lord at the final judgment gives eternal life to those who have persevered in doing what is good. Why would Paul say this [and it IS Paul who says it!], if doing good makes no difference in the end? Paul says that the prospect of the final judgment — where each one will receive what is due him — moves (or motivates) us to do what is pleasing to the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:9-10). Does it motivate you, Kevin?

    Doing what is pleasing to the Lord, with a view toward the final judgment, is not smuggling one’s character into God’s grace. If that were so, then the Apostle Paul is guilty of smuggling his character into God’s grace.

    The gospel is told and believed. I agree. The gospel is also to be obeyed. “God will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus; they will be cast out from the presence of the Lord and the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people . . . (2 Thessalonians 1:8).”

    Paul’s purpose gospel ministry: “to call people . . . to the obedience that comes through faith (Romans 1:5).”

    What does it mean to “obey the gospel?” Does it mean that one only believes — assents that the message is true? Or does believing imply trusting the Lord and obeying His Word? Those who said to Jesus, “Lord, Lord” but did not do what He said will one day be told, “Depart from me; I never knew you!” A true and living faith — a saving faith — will be recognized by its fruit, for faith is fruitful unto good works. Such good works will come to light on the Last Day. Heaven will rejoice at what good has been done by all who are in Christ by the power of the indwelling Christ.

  43. Kevin said,

    May 18, 2016 at 8:39 pm

    Robert bob, you can solve this very simply. Does someone’s works figure in to final justification before God . Yes or No?

  44. roberty bob said,

    May 18, 2016 at 9:40 pm

    Simple. James 2:21-24 “Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”

    Do you believe James? If you do, then you will have no problem with faith and deeds, believing and doing, and of God considering people righteous for having done what is right. The doing of what is good and right corroborates and authenticates the faith that is professed.

    However, if anyone is trusting in their own works — striving to establish their own righteousness by their own works — such a person will never be reckoned as righteous in God’s sight. It is by faith. Abraham had faith, but his faith was made complete by what he did. James says so. Abraham was considered righteous for what he did. What he did made his faith complete. So, as James says, a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

    The faith that justifies is not alone. The works figure. If they did not figure, then why do they come to light at the Last Day?

    As I see it, Paul and James are in agreement.

  45. Kevin said,

    May 19, 2016 at 9:07 am

    Roberty bob, what part of yes or no didn’t you understand . I asked you to answer yes or no. But you said ” The works figure” and Paul says ” not a result of works” You got a big problem. And your view of James is bogus . Listen to Augustine. ” How was Abraham justified. What does the Apostle say? Abraham was justified by faith. Paul and James don’t contradict each other. Good works follow justification .” Please, in the name of the gospel stop teaching the reformed this heresy. I’ll buy the boat. Take your semi pelagic shtick across the river to Rome. They will be happy to have you. Or repent and believe the gospel of scripture. K

  46. roberty bob said,

    May 19, 2016 at 10:09 am

    Abraham believed God — the promise God made to him — and it was credited to him as righteousness. Abraham’s subsequent works — what he did — revealed his faith to be genuine; his faith was made complete (as James says) by what he did. Faith justifies, but the faith that justifies is not alone. As James says, “You see that a person is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone.”

    James is not impressed with those who profess to have faith, but show no evidence of it in their lives. Where is the evidence? The evidence of faith is the fruit of trusting obedience to the Lord manifested in particular deeds or acts — Abraham offering up Isaac; Rahab helping the spies escape, etc. Faith that shows no evidence of trusting obedience [deeds!] is a dead faith. No one is justified before God with a dead faith. OK. So, God must require a living faith, a God-trusting, God-obeying, fruitful faith? A dead faith is no faith at all. What does a living faith look like? A living faith believes God’s promise, hearkens to God’s Word, and does God’s will. One’s deeds are in evidence.

    As you said, Kevin, the good works follow justification. I could not agree more.

  47. Kevin said,

    May 19, 2016 at 2:13 pm

    Roberty bob, but faith isnt the same as obedience. Faith is believing. We are justified by belief, all works are excluded. James describes well how faith is justified, by its works. But we are simply counted righteous liike the theif who had no works to offer. Simply by God’s goodness and mercy. Not of ourselves. Do you believe this. What does Paul mean ” not that of yourselvez” not of works”. ? You must ask yourself this question. If salvation cannot come from our works or ourselves, it must come only from faith alone by grace alone in Christ alone. K

  48. roberty bob said,

    May 20, 2016 at 12:09 am

    “If thou wilt enter life, keep the commandments.” — Jesus [Mt. 19:17]

    Why did Jesus say that? Because faith obeys God’s law

    “Not every one who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom, but he who does the will of my Father” — Jesus [Mt. 7:21]

    Why did Jesus say that?

    “It is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” — Paul [Romans 2:13]

    Why did Paul say that? Because faith obeys God’s law

    “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do, and not by faith alone.” — James [James 2:24]

    Why did James say that? Because faith is obedient to Christ.

    Those who live by faith will be considered righteous by what they do.

    This is not self-righteousness or works-righteousness.

    It is those who pridefully try to establish themselves before God as righteous by virtue of their own works apart from faith who cannot be justified.

    Kevin, I have never offered my works to the Lord in the hope that my works would justify me. By grace, I have put my faith in the Lord’s promise to save those who call upon him. Such a faith, over time, becomes fruitful unto good works. Sow in the Spirit, and reap a harvest of eternal life, as Paul says.

    So, faith without deeds / works is dead.

    Faith is believing. Right.
    Obedience is proof that Faith is alive.

  49. Ron said,

    May 20, 2016 at 5:20 am

    “If thou wilt enter life, keep the commandments.” — Jesus [Mt. 19:17]

    Why did Jesus say that? Because faith obeys God’s law.

    RB,

    If you’re going to interpret the verse that way you better sell all you have and give it to the poor in order to enter into life. That’s what Jesus went on to say.

    Have you considered that Jesus was merely showing this person that he hadn’t kept the law as he thought and that he wasn’t sold out to Jesus – that his faith was a sham faith? There are many verses in Scripture that drive us to the law in order that we might see the futility of trying to be saved by the law. Your interpretations take a different turn. Your interpretation here is that this person to whom Jesus ended up telling to sell all could have been saved by keeping the law. That leaves you with a gospel dilemma. Consider, (i) if he had saving faith, then haven’t you made justification a matter of faith + works? (ii) Yet if he lacked saving faith, aren’t you making justification out to be by works apart from faith? I’m not twisting your words. I’m merely completing your the trajectory of your thoughts, kinda like how you believe works complete faith.

  50. Ron said,

    May 20, 2016 at 5:28 am

    “Not every one who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom, but he who does the will of my Father” — Jesus [Mt. 7:21]

    Why did Jesus say that?

    RB,

    Again, if your point is to have any relevance here it would mean that there are some who say “Lord, Lord” that have saving faith yet merely lack the works needed to save them. Your theology hasn’t changed since you arrived. You’ve just become more crafty in your depiction of how faith alone is somehow lacking.

  51. Ron said,

    May 20, 2016 at 5:46 am

    It is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” — Paul [Romans 2:13]

    Why did Paul say that? Because faith obeys God’s law

    I went over this passage with my family Wednesday morning and offered two interpretations that didn’t violate the analogy of Scripture. Admittedly one was more strained than the other. No any case, what faith does the Gentile who never heard of Jesus and the Jew have? Obviously none. So couldn’t this be just another verse aimed at driving hearers to an alien righteousness that can only be appropriated by faith alone? You’ve introduced faith into the passage to come up with faith plus works, but faith isn’t in view. Only works are in view, even that of the Jews.

  52. roberty bob said,

    May 20, 2016 at 8:15 am

    Paul, in Romans 2:7, gives us a category of persons to whom God gives eternal life for having persisted in doing good while seeking glory, honor and immortality.

    I think that I hear you saying that this category of persons has nobody in it at all — it is a null set! — because there are no persons who meet the characteristics that define the category: none who persist in doing good.

    It is the same, then, with Romans 2:13. While those who obey the law will be declared righteous, there are actually no persons who will be declared righteous for having obeyed it because no one ever does.

    It’s the same with Jesus when he wraps up his sermon on the mount saying, Whoever hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who builds his house on the rock. Since, no one builds on the rock by obeying Jesus’ words, all efforts at obedience result in utter collapse.

    We are driven in desperation to the One who is the Rock, the Only Righteous Builder, and put our faith in him, confessing that it is impossible to obey him and put his words into practice; it’s impossible to hear and do.

  53. Ron said,

    May 20, 2016 at 9:25 am

    RB,

    Your the same person who gave his farewell a while ago. At that time, Reed, Kevin and I were on your trail. Your theology is a FV cocktail with a splash of Gaffin bitters. For you works complete our justification, the latter being incomplete without the former. Works for you are causal. The reductio of your position that I employed this time either is that one with the grace of faith cannot be eternally and irrevocably pardoned until future works or one with works can be saved apart from faith. Those options are the implication of your exegesis. You scoff any application of a hypothetical view, but you’re left with one being pardoned by giving away all he has – either apart from faith or along with faith! In either case, works is the final cause of justification.

    I refuse to untangle other misapplied verses. Just gives up the robes.

  54. Ron said,

    May 20, 2016 at 9:54 am

    Others,

    Of course we properly maintain that a believer’s righteousness will exceed that of the Pharisees, a teaching not referring to imputation. Yet RB’s theologically driven exegesis goes much further than believers will have good works. No need to labor that point any longer… RWD

  55. Kevin said,

    May 20, 2016 at 10:37 am

    Ron, absolutely awesome observations. K

  56. Kevin said,

    May 20, 2016 at 10:54 am

    Ron have you ever read Tim Kauffman on Romans 2. He hits the nail on the head First of all I believe the jealousy motive by God,starting in the OT. Running thru Jesus, and into Paul. Paul is making the jews jealous by saying the believing gentiles are better at keeping the law than the unrepentant jews. Incidentally , Dave Anders try to tell me that the law in 2:13 is a new law. But as Kauffman points out Paul has the mosaic law in view throughout chapters 1-3. Of course then Paul says ” apart from the law” According to the RC heresy gospel of gracious merit, Paul should have said Christ is the beginning of the law for righteousness to all who believe. But he says Chris is the end of the law. In chapter 2 he says the doers of the law will be justifiedmore but he doesn’t say they will be justified by doing the law. He is only saying the believing gentiles are better at doing the law than the unbelieving, unrepentant jews, imho

  57. Ron said,

    May 20, 2016 at 1:18 pm

    Kevin, not familiar with TK’s work. Does sound interesting though. Yes, we need to treat letters as an entire whole lest they become a wax nose. Also, we need to allow the entirety of Scripture to erect fence posts that in this case would forbid our stepping outside the gospel of grace apart from works.

  58. Reed DePace said,

    May 20, 2016 at 1:59 pm

    RB, might you be able to resolve the debate by explicating, simply and clearly, the instrumental nature of works with reference to the final judgment? Maybe two sentences, what it is, and what it is not?

  59. roberty bob said,

    May 20, 2016 at 7:07 pm

    “He (Paul) says the doers of the law will be justified, be he doesn’t say they will be justified by doing the law.” — Kevin.

    The doers of the law will have already been justified by faith; by faith the justified will be obedient to the Lord by keeping His law — in the manner of all who have ever lived righteously before the Lord. O how I love Thy law! It is my mediation day and night.

  60. Kevin said,

    May 21, 2016 at 12:26 am

    Roberty bob , quit beating around the bush. Is it any wonder you didn’t answer Reed’s question. We are waiting? We didn’t ask you what your daily meditation is. And we didn’t ask if you love the law. We asked if your righteous living justifies you in any way finally . Because if you believe that you are justified in any way by works, any works, you nullify grace. Romans 4:16, 11:6. K

  61. Ron said,

    May 21, 2016 at 7:38 am

    From another thread:

    roberty bob on March 9, 2016 at 2:53 pm
    “Can one lose full pardon?” — Ron

    Was the man in Jesus’s story who was fully pardoned for his unplayable debt lose his full pardon? [The Master DID release him from / forgive him of his debt!] Well, when it became evident that the forgiven man was unforgiving toward his own debtors, the Master took back the pardon. The man lost his full pardon.

    The above quote suggests that works don’t merely corroborate forgiveness. Rather, works have become the means by which one retains forgiveness. Works are no longer strictly a fruit of having been pardoned. In addition they have become a basis for remaining in a state of perpetual pardon. By affirming the corroborating aspect of works does not rid one’s theology of the causal aspect of works.

  62. Reed DePace said,

    May 21, 2016 at 6:47 pm

    RB, is this your profession of faith, yea, nay?

  63. Reed Here said,

    May 24, 2016 at 7:17 pm

    Hellllllooooooo?

  64. roberty bob said,

    May 26, 2016 at 10:46 am

    justified freely . . .

    by grace, God’s lovingkindness to unworthy sinners — Yes

    by Christ’s “one act of righteousness” (Rom. 5:18) — Yes

    by faith in Christ’s blood, God’s promise to forgive sinners — Yes

    faith that, evidentially, is fruitful unto good works — Yes

  65. Kevin said,

    May 26, 2016 at 11:20 am

    Reed, his continued reluctance to answer yes or no to the gospel of scripture answers the question. ” Out of the abundance of the heart the mouh speaks. I liked William Marsh’s poster but it doesn’t get to the heart of RB’s pisition. That our final acceptance before God will take our imperfect works into consideration . Tell me how this guy isn’t Roman Catholic in his pisition. Worthiness of merit. Go out and do your part because Christ’s merits applied to us by faith ALONE isn’t sufficient. Your character must be added k

  66. roberty bob said,

    May 26, 2016 at 4:52 pm

    The atoning sacrifice of Christ — the “one act of righteousness” — is the act of Christ that saves us, in contrast to Adam’s one sin that brought death into the world. Our salvation [justification] is by faith in Christ’s blood [his sacrificial, vicarious, sin-atoning death on the cross] and in God having raised Jesus from the dead [his vindication and ours in him!].

    Even so, the Apostles exhort us to make sure that we are in the faith, to make our calling and election sure, etc. Surely it cannot be wrong to ask how saving faith is manifested. What is the nature or character of saving faith? Is it wrong to say that saving faith is a living faith that is manifested in good deeds, that works through love (as Paul says), that hears Christ’s words and puts them into practice (as Jesus says)? How in the world can this be construed as the “adding of your character” (as Kevin says)?

    Is it wrong to believe that everyone will give an account to our Lord at the Last Day, and that everyone will receive what is due for the deeds done while living in the body — whether good or bad. One of the earlier postings raised the question, “Are good works necessary?” In response I have said that they must be necessary if they are taken into account at the Last Day. And so the debate is on the meaning of “necessary.” If the Apostle Paul, with the Last Day in view, says, “we make it our aim to please the Lord,” then I cannot help but believe that pleasing the Lord through the manner of our Christian walk matters; it is necessary in some sense. The justified shall LIVE by faith! I’m talking about actually LIVING by faith — what does that look like? I’m not talking about adding my character to a faith that is insufficient in order to make up for the insufficiency.

    So, this makes me a gospel denier?

  67. Kevin said,

    May 26, 2016 at 5:56 pm

    We are talking about justification !

  68. Ron said,

    May 26, 2016 at 6:39 pm

    RB,

    Can a man lose his “full pardon” as you’re quoted here, or has your position changed?

    https://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/how-does-jesus-work/#comment-131926

  69. roberty bob said,

    May 26, 2016 at 9:24 pm

    OK Kevin . . . so, you are saying that the Last Day events have nothing to do with our justification. What salvation category does it fall under?

    Are you saying that the justified man, when he appears before the Lord at the Last Day to have receive what is due for what he has done, will stand there and say to Christ, “You did it all! First you lived the sinless life in my place; then you died for my sins in my place; so, whatever I may have done during my lifetime — whether good or evil — has been taken care of by you, O Lord. Thank you for pardoning me, even in the face of my ungracious refusal to pardon those indebted to me; for I know that nothing I have said or done since the moment I put my faith in you and received my justification can condemn me. You pardoned me, Lord, and not even the cruel gracelessness of my unforgiving heart can undo what you have done.”

    Can a man lose his full pardon? Well, did the unmerciful servant of Matthew 18 lose his pardon when it became evident that he would not forgive one of his own debtor’s debts? “Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.” Is God’s forgiveness — a full pardon — withheld from the unforgiving person who won’t forgive his debtors? What I gather from reading the parable is that anyone who pleads God’s pardoning grace for himself must himself be willing to extend that same forgiving grace to his own debtors.

    Can an unmerciful, unforgiving man lay claim to God’s pardoning grace of justification? No, I don’t believe so, even if he believes that he himself has received God’s pardon for his own debts. It sounds to me that you believe otherwise. What would God do to you if you pleaded for saving grace to forgive your unpayable debt to Him, and then went your way demanding full payment from all your debtors? I hear you saying that God would do nothing: He pardoned you and that’s all that matters. That pardon cannot be lost. No matter what.

  70. Kevin said,

    May 26, 2016 at 10:59 pm

    John 5:24 ” Truly , truly, I say to you , he who HEARS my word , and BELIEVES Him who sent me, HAS eternal life, AND DOES NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has death into life ” Now you tell me? God saves us in spite of our works. Colossians says all our sins have been forgiven , past present, future. All the legal decrees against us were nailed to the cross. Ephesians 1:7 ” says we HAVE redemotion. Quit defroding your people of the assurance God gives in the gospel 1 John 5:13. K

  71. Ron said,

    May 26, 2016 at 11:03 pm

    RB,

    It’s hazardous to build your theology upon parables. Give up the robes. You reject the gospel.

  72. Ron said,

    May 26, 2016 at 11:13 pm

    Guys,

    Most of the time RB dodges questions and instead asserts many things that are agreeable. He’s blind but he’s not stupid. He knows what he’s doing. His approach is as appalling as the most strident FVisionist.

    He’s so deceptive he’ll neither affirm nor deny the claim made in the above link (provided again below). He’d rather dodge it by affirming that faith without works is dead. It’s repugnant. Truly repugnant.

    https://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/how-does-jesus-work/#comment-131962

  73. Ron said,

    May 26, 2016 at 11:34 pm

    And don’t let this little charade fool you:

    “What would God do to you if you pleaded for saving grace to forgive your unpayable debt to Him, and then went your way demanding full payment from all your debtors? I hear you saying that God would do nothing: He pardoned you and that’s all that matters. That pardon cannot be lost. No matter what.”

    His caricature posits an unrepentant man as pardoned. Then he accuses Kevin of holding to the untenable position that such a man would be pardoned on the last day. No, such a one wouldn’t be pardoned on the last day but nor would such a one lose his pardon, RB. He wouldn’t have a pardon to lose being unrepentant! Your turning this back on Kevin with a straw man is unbecoming of your robes.

    Your sweeping employment of the parable in what you said months ago implies that pardoned men WITHOUT DISTINCTION can lose their salvation. Unrepentant men can be pardoned and perish as well as truly repentant men. That’s what your left with when you say without qualification that one can lose his pardon. So once and for all, quit with all the caricatures of unchanged men being perpetually forgiven. Nobody here believes that so get off Kevin’s back you wolf.

  74. Pete Rambo said,

    May 27, 2016 at 5:11 am

    Kevin, Ron, et al…

    Since you believe yourselves to have the only correct answer, and feel the need to torment RB because he doesn’t fit your little box…

    Compare Genesis 15:6 and 26:5. Because Abraham (did).

    Faith and works are inextricably linked. Further, throughout Scripture, faith is an action word, measurable by what you DO!

    Matthew 7:21ff is instructive. Notice ‘…he who DOES the will of My Father… …who practice lawLESSness… …hears these words and ACTS on them… ….does not ACT on them…”

    James 2:24. One verse that kills the ‘can’t be justified by works’ argument. Is my faith in Yeshua alone? Yes. But, I do. That is what Scripture commands.

  75. Ron said,

    May 27, 2016 at 7:57 am

    “Since you believe yourselves to have the only correct answer, and feel the need to torment RB because he doesn’t fit your little box…”

    0 for 2. Bad start but not surprising. Not biting.

  76. Kevin said,

    May 27, 2016 at 8:01 am

    Pete said ” faith and works are inextricably linked” sorry Pete, not in justification. They are opposed. Paul says in Galatians ” Law is not faith” hearing by faith is opposed to works according to Paul in justification . ” Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness .” Do you see any works, or anything ” coming from ourselves ” in that verse? No you dont. Since you and RB don’t fit in Paul’s ” little box”, I’m telling you wolves to get out of the den, you are perverting the gospel k

  77. Kevin said,

    May 27, 2016 at 8:07 am

    Ron, this is the thing now creeping into the church, that faith and obedience are really the same thing, but according to Jesus in Mark 1:15 we are to believe in the gospel. It is told and believed, not done. Our works can only be our reasonable service of worship. These men are wolves. K

  78. Ron said,

    May 27, 2016 at 8:34 am

    Unfortunately Keith, the church has nodded off on this one. Rather than rebuke, mark and avoid she plays footsie I’m sorry to say. Also, please mind that these guys aren’t wolves because they believe and assert damnable doctrine but because they obfuscate others with their doctrine.

    You nailed it that the William Marsh quote doesn’t get to the heart of the matter. For these guys works indeed evidence justification, so they may indeed affirm the tenet. It’s just not the whole truth for them. Works plays another role – it’s causally related for it retains our pardon.

    Lastly, these guys are much worse than RCs because (a) they’re “pastors,” (b) they much less forthcoming with their doctrine (as when they affirm things like the Marsh quote…) and (c) they do their damage from within the church. That’s what makes them wolves.

  79. roberty bob said,

    May 27, 2016 at 8:52 am

    All who come to Christ confessing their sins in true repentance are assured of God’s gracious pardon. YES, I affirm.

    Christ’s parable proves that works of repentance [namely, the willingness to actually forgive your debtors as God in Christ has forgiven you] matter. The true nature of saving faith is revealed in those who are forgiving. Thus, the manner in which saving faith is manifested matters; it is revealed by what we actually do.

    Thank you, Pete Rambo, for the affirmation!

  80. Kevin said,

    May 27, 2016 at 8:59 am

    Ron, I couldn’t agree more. But that has always been the corruption of faith at its core, the conflation of law and gospel. Paul didn’t relent one minute Galatians 2:5, and I know you and I will never. In the end these 2 men say we are in some way justified by works before God. And then turn around and claim we torment RB. But false teaching always cries intolerance and disunity, right? Look at the Papists.

  81. Kevin said,

    May 27, 2016 at 9:17 am

    The scripture says if you go to reprove a fool he will slap you in the face. Ron, it has been my error to continue to confront a man who is unrepentant about his doctrine. These men who are justified by law Galatians 5:1-4, are fallen from grace , severed from Christ according to Paul. ” For if it’s by grace, it is no longer on the basis points of works , otherwise grace is no longer grace.” These me corrupt the demerited favor of God by making verses that are descriptive, perscriptive. Paul prays for men like these in Romans 10:1. ” For not knowing about the righteousness of God, they seek to establish their own. Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to all who believe. But according to these men Christ is the beginning of the law for righteousness to all who believe. Sad

  82. Ron said,

    May 27, 2016 at 9:36 am

    “Thank you, Pete Rambo, for the affirmation!”

    Consider the source of the affirmation, RB, a 21st century judaizer.

  83. Ron said,

    May 27, 2016 at 10:52 am

    Kevin, I heartily associate myself with your remarks:

    https://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/how-does-jesus-work/#comment-131976

  84. roberty bob said,

    May 27, 2016 at 10:56 am

    Well, you’ve just admitted that the unrepentant man is not pardoned; therefore you agree with me that faith plus repentance are necessary for justification. Or, could we call that a repentant faith?

    We are called to produce the fruit of repentance, or, as Paul says, “to “prove their repentance by their deeds” (Acts 26:20). Yes, Paul exhorted his hearers to do that. Why? Did he see the necessity of a repentant faith? Repentant is a qualifier just as fruitful, living, and obedient are qualifiers.

    Are the commands of Christ [as in “teaching them to do all that I have commanded” and “puts my words into practice”] law? Is there such a thing as “the Law of Christ” (Galatians 6) which we are expected to fulfill? Are you saying, then, that those of us who live by the Law of Christ are opposed to faith?

    Do you guys bear one another’s burdens, thereby fulfilling the Law of Christ? If so, do you do this in keeping with your faith or in conflict with your faith?

  85. May 27, 2016 at 12:26 pm

    RB, Mr. Judaizer, where does scripture say ” we are called to produce the fruit of repentant faith” to be justified. Abraham simply believed the promise and he was righteous. Paul says the righteous shall live by faith. Why does he call me righteous?, Im never inherently righteous in this life. Why did he call the tax collector righteous?. How is a man able to go home righteous? imputation. The man is 1 Corinthians 5 had his fathers wife and Paul said he was worse than all the gentiles, yet he delivered his flesh to be destroyed so that his soul would be saved. Did that guy lose his pardon? NO You teach conditional salvation, when Jesus said by simply believing we pass out of judgment and death to life. Your salvation depends on you being in a constant state of repentance. Have you repented of all your sins? Remember, you walk a dangerous road. God isn’t like our father. He doesn’t relent. If you go down the road of law, it requires personal, perfect, perpetual obedience. You said ” are you saying that those of us live by the law of Christ are opposed to faith” ABSOLUTELY! if you believe that by living that law you will be justified in any way. The burden is on you judaizer to produce one scripture that says we are justified before God by repentance, love, works etc. ” NOT THAT OF YOURSELVES” get that, you can’t have anything to do with it! It is by grace thru faith! Sorry, Romans 4:16 says if you want to be saved by grace alone, it will have to be by faith alone. Last post. You and your friend are fools to believe that your repentance and works will justify you. You rob God of all his glory. Go join the synagog of Rome. K

  86. Ron said,

    May 27, 2016 at 2:05 pm

    “Well, you’ve just admitted that the unrepentant man is not pardoned;”

    I said he was never pardoned as opposed to having been pardoned and then later losing pardon. Given all your bobbing and weaving (not unlike what occurs in the RC sacrilege of the mass), you’ve actually been able both to affirm and deny the same proposition. You have the man pardoned and not pardoned depending on which day it is, initial pardon day of judgement day. Accordingly, whatever you’d like to infer as my having “admitted” anything, it stands in stark contrast to the spell you’ve been put under. I’ll put it another way below…

    “therefore you agree with me that faith plus repentance are necessary for justification.”

    You’ve conflated conditions with causes. The only condition I’ve ever affirmed in this regard pertain to states of affairs. Whereas you have crossed the rubicon by turning works into a toggle switch that flips on and off justification. Works *retain* pardon for you (note the causal aspect), as opposed to being a fruit of pardon. If the tree doesn’t bear apples it’s not an apple tree. Your theology allows it to be an apple tree one minute and skunk cabbage the next. For you the apples cause it to be an apple tree and to remain being an apple tree. You have things exactly backwards.

    “Or, could we call that a repentant faith?”

    Faith doesn’t repent. People do.

  87. Reed Here said,

    May 27, 2016 at 2:41 pm

    RB: um, maybe, you could help the differences by explaining what you mean about the evidentiary nature of good works.

    What role do they play in justification, particularly?

    Maybe you agree with these:

    1. Good works are consequentially necessary in that they are the evidence that they Spirit has brought forth them as results that always follow regeneration, and that,
    2. Good works in no way add or detract from one’s already fully justified state, and that,
    3. Any deficiency or demerit in such works will not have any effect on one’s justified state at the final judgment.

    Simple responses would be preferable, as in yes or no to each. For any “no,” then maybe re-write the sentence you disagree with, highlighting your perfecting language.

    I remain willing to believe different about your convictions. At the same time, I must admit that you’ve given no reason to deny Kevin and Ron’s observation that you are equivocating, and if so, hold to some sort of FV-Arminian-Pelagian position. Still, I hold out hope that all your arguing (on this, and a “dozen” other posts) is nothing more than a personal bug-a-boo.

    So, as I’ve asked before, might you eliminate the lack of clarity? Either you agree with our position or you don’t.

    P.S., you do realize that Pete Rambo’s definition of “good works” is intimately wrapped up with the performance of Judaistic practices formulated by the descendants of those who rejected Jesus and escaped the AD 70 destruction? Affirming fellowship with heresy is not a good way of winning over brothers.

  88. roberty bob said,

    May 27, 2016 at 2:42 pm

    Got it.

    People who believe have a justifying faith. These same people, because they have this faith, repent of their sins and go forth to bear the fruit of their new found pardon.

    Thanks.

  89. Reed Here said,

    May 27, 2016 at 2:44 pm

    Ron, skunk cabbage verses apples! Good comparison! Of course, one must have some experience with a good skunk cabbage along a middle Atlantic creek to really “feel” the full force of the comparison. ;-)

  90. May 27, 2016 at 3:12 pm

    Ron, the skunk cabbage/ apple is classic. You are one smart cat. K

  91. Reed Here said,

    May 27, 2016 at 4:24 pm

    RB, please don’t let my question wait too long. Thanks.

    https://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/how-does-jesus-work/#comment-131983

  92. Ron said,

    May 27, 2016 at 4:53 pm

    Reed,

    I appreciate the sentiments. For I held out hope for RB for quite some time but the tiebreaker for me was his insistence that one can lose “full pardon” by lack of good works. At minimum he’d have to recant.

    That part is explicit in his posts. Now for some conjecture. If initial pardon is by faith alone (prior to proving one’s faith by works), and if a want of works can cause one to lose initial pardon, then is the faith that initially justified still intact? I suspect so given RB’s understanding of works completing faith. That is no less than the “saved by faith, kept by works” theology we find in Galatians. Either way, whether one loses his justifying faith when works don’t come forth or whether he retains it yet while lacking justifying works, it’s still another gospel. To borrow from Ricky to Lucy, RB has some “splaining” to do.

  93. Kevin said,

    May 27, 2016 at 5:30 pm

    I often wonder why conflaters can’t understand ” not that of yourselves” and ” not a result of works” Can it be any clearer? It confirms that unbelief is in ignorance and blindness to the gospel . If salvation isn’t a result of works nor from ourselves, then it only leaves God . Salvation is from the Lord. Seems like I read that somewhere. K

  94. Reed Here said,

    May 27, 2016 at 5:43 pm

    Ron, I read what you’re saying. I admit I am still holding out some hope that RB is upset at the degree of antinomianism present in most of modern evangelicalism, and that he has been whipping that hobby horse’s finish off.

    I read his “lost pardon” comment with the hopes that he responded with less clarity. If so, it will be easy for him to qualify and observe:

    1. That the passage in view is a parable, and
    2. That details must not pressed too far, and
    3. That to be consistent with the rest of Scripture, the unforgiving servant lost a pardon he never actually partook of.

    Of course, any lack of qualification does put RB squarely in the equivocation of the FV camp. It should be easy to affirm, strenuously even, the consistent biblical position:

    1. Works, such as forgiving others, are consequently necessary.
    2. These are evidences of the Spirit’s presence and work, not of the person’s work.
    3. These do not add/subtract from a person’ justification.
    4. That their absence leaves one without real hope on the Day of Judgement.
    5. That a realization today of the jeopardy then must first drive one to rest in Christ, and then to seek His work in one’s works.

    This should not be too hard to affirm. It saddens that RB can’t.

  95. Reed Here said,

    May 27, 2016 at 5:46 pm

    RB, please don’t let my question wait too long. Thanks.

    https://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/how-does-jesus-work/#comment-131983

    Please also respond to Ron’s request vis-a-vis “lost” pardon.

    https://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/how-does-jesus-work/#comment-131990

  96. Kevin said,

    May 27, 2016 at 6:00 pm

    Reed, Paul was accused of antinomianism. We are talking about justification. Justification is antinomian. ” to the one who does not work” I’m not sure why you give him the benefit of the doubt. If he is indeed a Pastor, he will incur a stricter judgment. All true believers desire to obey God’s law. But there can be no give when it comes to justification before God. God bless brother. K

  97. Ron said,

    May 27, 2016 at 7:15 pm

    Copy Reed. Hoping with you too. What can be difficult is that when we overreact we often dig our heels in so deep on the other side, making a ditch from which we aren’t able to climb out. So what I hear you saying is that RB might be promoting a gospel of works because he’s tired of cheap grace. With some obvious misgivings I do hope that is the case. Blessings, Brother.

  98. Kevin said,

    May 27, 2016 at 10:38 pm

    Roberty bob, I just listened to the greatest diatribe on justification I have ever heard. Michael Horton ” Are you saved by faith aline” 4 10 minute part series available on YouTube. I hope all here will listen. Absolutely overwhelming defense. K

  99. Pete Rambo said,

    May 28, 2016 at 8:11 am

    Kevin, Ron. Thank you for the welcome. I always love dropping in. There is usually such a warm reception!
    ____

    By the rules of hermeneutics, if there is a verse that clearly opposes one’s theological position, then that person has not arrived at the correct solution.

    James 2:24 rips to top off of the little box you try to squeeze RB into. Read it and take time to consider the implications:

    “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

    James is being sparklingly clear here. In fact, he is restating the point to make sure we didn’t miss it. Read the previous six verses. Besides articulating clearly that Abraham’s actions justified him, James spells out multiple times that faith without works is nothing, zero, zilch, nada.

    If you don’t like it, you don’t disagree with me. You disagree with James… and God.

    What did Yeshua (Jesus) say?

    Luke 10:25 relates that ‘a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit ETERNAL life?”

    (Yeshua) said to him, “What is written in the Torah?”‘

    When the lawyer correctly answers with statutes, Yeshua says, “you have answered correctly; DO this and you will live!”

    The man, seeking to JUSTIFY HIMSELF asks ‘who is my neighbor?’

    Yeshua ends the story with ‘Go and DO the same.’

    Interestingly, the chain reference in my Bible for Yeshua’s “Do this and you will live” response points to the same verse that Kevin’s (#76) misquoted (“Law is not faith”) and wrongly applied Galatians 3:12 cite points to: Leviticus 18:5. (See also Ezekiel 20:11, 13 and 21.)

    “So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he DOES them; I am YHVH.”

    Christendom flips what Paul says upside down to make the case for lawlessness.

    Gentlemen, Yeshua, James, Paul, Ezekiel and Moses say that obedience (doing) brings life. Yeshua even affirms that it is eternal life.

    Paul’s argument is not that Yeshua abolished the Law, but that because we cannot perfectly keep it, we need a Redeemer. (Breaking the Law imparts a curse. The Law itself is NOT a curse.)

    Christendom largely and wrongly concludes that ‘since we can’t keep it, why bother. Let’s just unilaterally abolish/annul/ignore it.’ This explains an anemic and antinomian church, precisely the point I think RB was trying to make.

    Kevin, Ron and everyone: Here, according to Yeshua, is how to be LEAST in the kingdom:

    Annul one of the least of the commandments and teach others to do the same. (Matt. 5:19)

    If you want to be LEAST in the Kingdom, carry on, otherwise, please, put that on your refrigerator to serve as a warning against the traditions we have inherited that are contrary to the Word of God.

    According to the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16), it is the Torah that will be written on our hearts. According to Isaiah 2:3 and Micah 4:2, it is the Torah the Messiah will teach from Zion. According to Ezekiel 36:26-28; and 37:24-28, it is the Torah that will forever be the everlasting covenant.

    Truly, I wish you, Shabbat shalom!

  100. Ron said,

    May 28, 2016 at 10:50 am

    “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

    Wisdom is justified in her children… James being wisdom literature leads me to believe that a man is vindicated by his works, not pardoned because of them. In any case, you said something about bringing one’s theology in line with any one given verse. In other words, even if one verse undermines our theology then our theology must be modified until the apparent tension disappears. Although true in one sense, I find this rather amusing coming from a proponent of a cult which rejects the principle of the analogy of Scripture. If one should modify his creed according to one verse, how much more the case when the overwhelming testimony of Scripture runs contrary to it? I said “in one sense” because of course it might be the case that one’s theology is indeed correct and that it’s just the one verse that needs to be interpreted within the constraints of all the other verses.

    Lastly, the Lord said he’d build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail. That alone undermines the legitimacy of your *tiny* cult that would claim this very Lord. Quick kicking against the pricks would be my advice. If not for yourself then for those whose lives you’re no doubt ruining.

  101. Kevin said,

    May 28, 2016 at 11:51 am

    Augustine ” How was Abraham justified, what does the Apostle say ( Paul), Abraham was justified by faith, Paul and James don’t contradict each other. Good works follow justification.” This Catholic bishop understood it. You are a heretic Pete. You don’t need a welcome, you need the gospel. God justifies THE ONE WHO DOES NOT WORK , Romans 4:5. Has that sunk in yet. Listen one more time to Paul, God justifies THE UNGODLY MAN WHO DOES NOT WORK, and yet you and your buddy RB want us to lay the carpet out for your gospel of works righteouness. There was another man God rejected who thought his grace inspired deeds earned him salvation . He thanked God he had done all these things and wasn’t like the tax collector. I hope you and RB will listen to Michael Horton “Are you saved by Faith Alone” every series student should listen to this presentation which leaves no doubt. K

  102. Reed Here said,

    May 28, 2016 at 1:07 pm

    Brothers, Pete knows all the arguments, and he does not care to rightly interact with them. He is just an increasing recalcitrant heretic. May God have mercy on his soul, and the souls of those who listen to him.

  103. Ron said,

    May 28, 2016 at 1:17 pm

    “May God have mercy on his soul, and the souls of those who listen to him.”

    Amen and Amen.

  104. Kevin said,

    May 28, 2016 at 2:04 pm

    Amen to that Reed.

  105. Kevin said,

    May 29, 2016 at 7:54 am

    Pete said ” if there is a verse that clearly opposes one’side theological position, then that person has not arrived at the correct solution ” 1 Timothy 1: 9 ” who saved us and called us with a holy calling, NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING WE HAVE DONE, but according to his own purpose and grace which was granted in Christ Jesus from all eternity, Looks like the one who hasn’t arrived at ” the correct solution” is Pete the 2nd Temple Jew. Pete are you taking your own medicine tiday. Notice there is no distinction between acts of love and ceremonial law but nothing we have done had anything to do with God’s calling and saving . So Pete you deny all of Jesus, Paul, and scripture teaching on jbfa, and yet you bring a faulty interpretation of James 2 and ” arrived at a wrong solution. Correct hermeneutics indeed! Reed says you know all the arguments. So you know them, you just arrived at the incorrect solution, Quick review, Paul says God called,justified, and saved a wicked man who does not work, apart from anything he hasaid done, and you arrived at works righteouness. K

  106. roberty bob said,

    May 30, 2016 at 2:45 pm

    My response to the 5 points @ #94 . . .

    1. Works are consequently necessary. [agree]

    2. Works are evidence of the Spirit’s presence and work. [agree] But not the person’s work. [disagree] The person is still the doer of the works, for he will receive what is due at the Last Day for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

    3. Works to not add or subtract from one’s justification [agree]. But works do verify and confirm. Abraham was justified when he believed God’s promise. Yet, Abraham’s faith and actions worked together so that his faith was made complete by what he did (James 2:22).

    4. The absence of good works leaves one without hope on Judgement Day. [agree] As I have been saying . . . which is why they are necessary to enter eternal life. “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, God will give eternal life (Romans 2:7).”

    5. The realization of the jeopardy (of the absence of good works) must drive one to seek rest in Christ, and then to seek His work in one’s work. [agree] It is Christ living in me; he makes me willing to do his good pleasure.

    ………

    So, the believer with a justifying faith — a true, living faith — will bring forth the good works that are pleasing to the Lord.

    Even while these works are sure to follow, Christ and his apostles continually command, admonish, and exhort all people everywhere to repent of their sins in order that they may receive a pardon. Sinners believe the gospel promise in order to be justified. Sinners repent in order to be pardoned. Two sides, same coin. Believing sinners hear the words of Christ and put them into practice in order to have their lives be built upon the rock and be saved. Faith is depicted in multiple ways, all of them indicative of a trusting response to the call of Christ. Obedience to the commands of Christ is the expected response of true faith. Those who obey “the law of Christ” are not corrupting their faith by adding works to it; they are corroborating.

  107. roberty bob said,

    May 30, 2016 at 3:24 pm

    One more try with the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant (Matthew 18)

    Jesus tells the parable in response to the incredulous outcry of his own disciples when he told them that they must forgive 70 times 7 — meaning basically that there is no limit or end to the number of times one forgives another.

    The parable features a master who one day gets around to holding a particular servant to pay back the impossibly immense debt he has accrued. The servant pleads with his master to forgive the debt, and the master agrees. It’s a full pardon.

    The same servant straightaway goes to one of his own debtors to demand payment in full for a significantly smaller debt, but refused to forgive when the debtor pleads for mercy.

    When the master finds out that his own fully pardoned servant has behaved thusly, he changes his mind about the orginal pardon and decides to make the Unmerciful Servant work until the debt is paid off.

    The master [a stand-in for God??] takes back the full pardon.
    ……..

    Does God in real life do that? No.

    What is Christ teaching us, then?

    Only the merciful receive mercy. We have not be grasped by the grace of God in all of its glorious pardoning splendor unless we respond in kind to those who are indebted to us. Do not assume God’s gracious pardon for yourself [of a debt impossible to repay] when you refuse to forgive your own [much lesser] debtors. Lord, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.

  108. rfwhite said,

    May 30, 2016 at 7:09 pm

    A few thoughts on Matt 18:23-35. The parable’s teaching on forgiveness is soteriologically loaded, raising the question of whether the heavenly Father’s forgiveness is contingent on His child’s forgiveness of his sibling.

    In my view, the following are clues from the passage and its context:
    1. The “you” of v 35 is the “you” of v 22 who is in the church (v 18) on earth (v 19); the Father (v 35) is in heaven (v 35; cf. v 19).

    2. Any “brother” who sins—or, more precisely, who remains unrepentant of demonstrable sin—may be exposed as a “Gentile and tax collector,” that is, as an outsider and a traitor, as a result of the disciplinary process. Thus one’s earthly identification as a brother/sister is falsifiable. Also, earthly discipline is authoritative because heaven has acted first (v 18); in other words, earthly discipline is authoritative to the extent, but only to the extent, that it is reflective of heaven’s prior action.

    3. The unforgiving servant in the parable fails to imitate his lord’s gracious mercy toward the repentant fellow servant (v 33). This failure exposes the absence of a defining “family” trait: forgiveness toward one’s repentant sibling is a defining trait of the Heavenly Father’s children (i.e, the children of kingdom of heaven). The absence of this forgiveness is a finding that places the guilty party outside the family and makes one liable to both church (earthly, temporal) and divine (heavenly, eternal) judgment.

    4. The earthly king’s reversal of his forgiveness toward the servant is predicated on his finite and fallible knowledge; that is, the king’s knowledge of the nature of the servant’s plea as spurious was finite and fallible. On the other hand, the Heavenly Father’s knowledge of the nature of a brother’s plea (as spurious) is infinite and infallible. This distinction between the earthly king’s knowledge and the Heavenly Father’s knowledge illustrates the analogical character of parabolic teaching, and why we cannot press every detail.

    5. The king’s reversal of his forgiveness is also predicated on what he regarded as the justifiable expectation that anyone he forgave would be forgiving of others who repented.

    6. One other consideration: should we presume that the father-child relationship in the biblical world view is unbreakable? That is, does the reality of the parental right to disinherit children relate to the parable’s interpretation? Should we not remember that in Gen 21 Abraham disinherited Ishmael? The covenant community is not coextensive with the elect-regenerate.

    7. Plausibly, the parable illustrates the two sides of God’s covenant — that is, its threats and promises — both of which are addressed to the community convened under the mediatorial lordship of Jesus (well summarized in the phrase in 18:20, “gathered together in My name”). As the covenant Lord, Jesus here gives a warningof judgment to the unforgiving “brother”; but He also, at least implicitly from the preceding context, gives a promise to him of forgiveness upon repentance (18:15, “if he listens to you, you have won your brother”).

  109. Kevin said,

    May 30, 2016 at 9:51 pm

    ” the absence of good works leaves one without hope on judgment day” How is it that John says the believer has passed out of judgment and death into life, and that he has redemption, and that he can know he has eternal life, and you say his works will in some way determine his judgment? RB, you are saying that what we do in some way determines our final justification, and yet Paul says in 2 Timothy 1:9 that God called and saved us NOT ACCORDING TO ANYTHING WE HAVE DONE. He doesn’t separate acts of love from ceremonial law but nothing we do. God finally justifies the WICKED MAN ONE WHO DOES NOT WORK, and yet you say he justifies the one who works. Pay RB and their wage. Look, not that of yourselves, not of works, not according to anything we have done, to the one who does not work but believes. Justification is always past tense, and yet you say it is a future act based on works. Can you not see the scripture is full of eliminating all doing in justification. Faith that works isn’t faith plus works. All works are eliminated in our acceptance before God. K

  110. roberty bob said,

    May 30, 2016 at 10:48 pm

    Kevin, God justifies the wicked man who believes God’s promise. The wicked man who believes God’s promise perseveres in doing good while seeking glory, honor,and immortality (says Paul in Romans 2:7) and receives from the Lord the gift of eternal life. Faith that works! If you think that Paul is saying something entirely different in Romans 2:7, then kindly tell me what he really means.

    Such a wicked believing good work doing man is not trying to establish his own righteousness by adding works to his faith; he is simply doing what people of faith do: seeking first the kingdom of God by living in obedience to Christ.

    Consider also Peter’s testimony in Acts 10, where he says, “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear God and do what is right.”

    Explain Paul’s declaration in Romans 2:13, “. . . it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” You tell me how and why this is a true saying. Explain. Explain. Explain.

    “Justification is always past tense.” — Kevin. And there will be a final judgment on the Last Day — a future act — when each one will receive what is due for the works done while living in the body. The works will be brought to light for some reason. What is the reason?

  111. roberty bob said,

    May 30, 2016 at 11:05 pm

    Thank you, rfwhite @108 for your considerable insights. I had earlier tried to say, without much success, what you express in Point 5.

  112. Kevin said,

    May 31, 2016 at 8:20 am

    You pervert Paul’says words. Romans 2:3 says the doers of the law will be justified, but he doesn’t say they will be justified by doing the law. This chapter is the jealousy metaphor we see throughout scripture . God is making the jews jealous by saying the believing gentiles were better at doing the law than the unbelieving jews. ” APART FROM THE LAW” 3:20.Just like every RC I have ever dealt with you give no answer to Paul. Explain this please? Not that of yourselves, not a result of works, not according to anything we have done, if it’s by grace it is no longer by works otherwise grace isn’t grace, to the one who does not work. EXPLAIN why all doing is excluded. And justification on the installment plan isn’t an option Explain those verses. K

  113. Kevin said,

    May 31, 2016 at 8:31 am

    To answer your question, God will indeed reward our works, but not with justification. Otherwise Paul misled everyone for excluding works from justification and saying it was past tense. Jesus misled us by saying believers have already passed out of judgment John 5:24, and John misled us by telling us we can know HAVE, HAVE, HAVE eternal life. Ephesians 1:7 says I already have redemption. And yet you lie to people like antichrist papacy and tell your people wait till the end when God is going to weigh up the goods and the bads, and if they outweigh the bads you are in. Please don’t call yourself reformed. You defy everything Luther fought for, and deny 500 years of history. You have said here that God justifies the one who works. K

  114. Ron said,

    May 31, 2016 at 9:57 am

    “And there will be a final judgment on the Last Day — a future act — when each one will receive what is due for the works done while living in the body. The works will be brought to light for some reason. What is the reason?”

    Please, you tell us, RB.

  115. roberty bob said,

    May 31, 2016 at 10:06 am

    “God will indeed reward our works, but not with justification.” — Kevin

    Once again, from Romans 2 . . .

    those who by persistence in doing good seek the glory, honor, and immortality of the heavenly kingdom, God will give [reward with] eternal life — glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good — both Jew and Gentile

    those who are self-seeking and reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger, trouble and distress — to the Jew first and then for the Gentile

    Everyone will indeed be given their due for what they have done.

    The justified believer, because he has a faith that works, will take this truth to heart and follow after righteousness, becoming fruitful in every good work. He can have the assurance of salvation [of having been justified] as he works out his faith in trusting dependance on the Lord. The justified believer turns out to be a hearer – doer of the word of God who lives in trusting obedience to the Lord. He has a faith that works. He is a disciple of Jesus who obeys all that the Lord has commanded (Matt.28). By faith he is righteous in God’s sight; by faith he does what is right in God’s sight. When he fails, he confesses his sins and receives cleansed (1 John 1:9); he returns to the Lord; he perseveres in the obedient service of his King. His faith and his actions work together, and his faith is made complete by what he does (James 2:22).

  116. Reed Here said,

    May 31, 2016 at 10:48 am

    Rb, 106: ah, here is the hang up:

    “2. Works are evidence of the Spirit’s presence and work. [agree] But not the person’s work. [disagree] The person is still the doer of the works, for he will receive what is due at the Last Day for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.”

    You go on to agree, in response to the third point, that works verify and confirm. But do they add anything to one’s justification?

    Ron’s question, no. 114, seems very pertinent. Your response to Kevin in no. 115 moves in the direction of answering, but it still does not quite cross the bridge.

    Exactly what do you consider the rewards? Those already given at justification? The justification is not complete but contingent.

    It seems your reading of Rom 2 is exactly this. If so, then you indeed are equivocating on whether or not justification is final and complete at regeneration. You may intend to be doing so, but your failure to differentiate rewards at the final judgment from the benefits of justification forces your arguments into this conundrum.

    Maybe it is time to re-think your exegesis of Rom 2:5-8? It has led you into a hole from which you will not easily climb out.

    (Again, if all you are insisting upon is that Spirit-born faith receives Spirit-born works, which in turn confirm and do not add anything to Spirit-given justification – then PLEASE! quit harping on this on every post that even begins to touch on anything even slightly remotely connected.

    Instead, contribute something new, something clearer.

    Sincerely, if this is ALL you mean, then why keep saying things that sound confusing at best brother? No need. No need.

    And if you insist, then maybe you should go back and study more before burdening the rest of us with confusion on a topic that we are very clear on.

    Good works are both necessary (consequently) and guaranteed to the one born again (Eph 2:10). They are most necessary, in that no one will see eternity without them. This “most necessary” necessity is because and only because their absence means the person has never been born again, never regenerate, and so never given the justifying faith that expresses initial faith in Jesus alone unto justification. They do not add to that justifying faith anything. Indeed, they flow from sanctifying faith, not juistifying.)

  117. Kevin said,

    May 31, 2016 at 11:00 am

    Look, are you going to explain those verses I provided that eliminate all human activity from justification???????? Here they are again not according to anything we have done, not that of yourselves, not a result of works, to the one who DOES NOT WORK, if it’s by grace it is NO LONGER by works. Please explain these in light of your defining justification as regeneration and sanctification. K

  118. roberty bob said,

    May 31, 2016 at 11:20 am

    OK, Reed . . .

    The good works are necessary. Agreed.
    The good works are guaranteed to the regenerate. Agreed.
    The good works flow from faith. Agreed.
    No one will see eternity without good works. Agreed.

    So, we all agree that eternal life will be given to those whose works are judged by the Lord to be good.

    Every time I say that, Kevin attacks me for teaching justification by faith plus works. I have never taught such a thing. I do teach that a saving faith is a faith that works — a faith that is corroborated (not corrupted) by the righteous deeds that are done in Christ.

  119. roberty bob said,

    May 31, 2016 at 11:25 am

    Kevin, a man is justified by faith in God’s promise. Just like Abraham.
    Just like Abraham, a man’s deeds will corroborate his professed faith.

    The Scriptures speak of both, and they are not in conflict.

  120. Ron said,

    May 31, 2016 at 11:29 am

    RB,

    Your post to Reed would have been agreeable to any delegate to the council of Trent or any Westminster Divine for that matter. Rather uninteresting. Your posts give new meaning to question begging.

  121. Kevin said,

    May 31, 2016 at 11:54 am

    They are in justification judaizer. It’s clear to me you believe we are finally justified by grace inspired works. The works of the law done in us. That is justification with the law. But Paul says ” nor WITHOUT the law” Please teach your people thato you changed Romans 10:4 from Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to all who believe , to Christ is the beginning of the law……..” You foolish Galatian, who bewitched you. You have fallen from grace, severed from Christ, you who would be justified by law. Enough from me.

  122. rfwhite said,

    May 31, 2016 at 5:48 pm

    RB — Might you tell us if you affirm or deny the following paragraphs from WCF 16? Or tell us in what particulars you have differences with the statements below.

    5. We cannot, by our best works, merit forgiveness for sin or eternal life at the hand of God. This is true because of the great disproportion between our best works and the glory to come, and because of the infinite distance between us and God. We cannot benefit God by our best works nor render satisfaction for the debt of our former sins, for when we have done all we can, we have done merely our duty and are unprofitable servants. This is because, insofar as they are good, these deeds proceed from the Spirit; and, insofar as they are done by us, they are defiled and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection that they cannot endure the severity of God’s judgment.

    6. Nevertheless, because believers are accepted through Christ, their good works are also accepted in him. They are accepted not because believers are in this life unblamable and unreprovable in God’s sight, but because he, looking upon them in his Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, even though it is accompanied by many weaknesses and imperfections.

  123. Ron said,

    May 31, 2016 at 8:06 pm

    Fowler,

    It might be good to flesh out the reward in view. Is it reward of pardon or some lesser reward, like that of the Lord crowning his own graces.

  124. rfwhite said,

    May 31, 2016 at 10:19 pm

    Ron: Right. We’d agree that the reward of pardon (aka forgiveness) is precluded in par. 5, sentence 1: “We cannot, by our best works, merit forgiveness for sin or eternal life at the hand of God.”

  125. Ron said,

    May 31, 2016 at 10:41 pm

    Ah, yes. Good point. Proceed with your examination, Doctor. :)

  126. Kevin said,

    May 31, 2016 at 11:00 pm

    According to 2 Timothy 1:9 He saved us and called us not according to ANYTHING we have done, Romans 5:10 says we will be saved by His life not ours. The WCW statement is meticulously accurate. But brothers thiso is RB’s statement” So we all agree that eternal life will be given to those whose works are judged to be good” Iow, God will take our works into consideration for his acceptance. But John says the one who believes HAS eternal life and does not come into judgment. He is saying that he is working for acceptance, and scripture says we are living out an acceptance we already have. Our assurance Rome calls presumption. How can RB know he has eternal life if God is going to judge the state of affairs in his life at the end. Paul says there is NOW no condemnation for those is Christ. This man by his own words denies the gospel of scripture K

  127. rfwhite said,

    June 1, 2016 at 8:40 am

    Kevin: Your concerns are shared. As you rightly put it, the WCF is meticulously accurate, so I’m wondering if considering its statements will advance the discussion.

  128. Kevin said,

    June 1, 2016 at 9:52 am

    Rf, of course I believe it will.

  129. Reed Here said,

    June 1, 2016 at 5:51 pm

    RB, as you can see, the problem is with lack of clarity on the relationship of justification and sanctification’s works. Maybe tracking with Dr. Fowler’s question will help you put this to bed.

  130. roberty bob said,

    June 1, 2016 at 7:30 pm

    “How can RB know he has eternal life if God is going to judge the state of affairs in his life at the end?” — Kevin @126

    OK. So, God is not going to judge the state of affairs — what I have done in the body, whether good or bad, and give what is due — on the Last Day. If God were to do that, then there is no way that I could know right now that I have eternal life.

    It would really be helpful to me if someone could tell me what the Lord will be doing on the Last Day when He gives to each one according to what was done in the body.

    …….

    I have never believed it is possible for a sinner like me to merit forgivness of sins, eternal life, or anything else. I have been justified by faith in Christ’s atoning blood. I am an adopted child of the King, so there is no need for me to win favor and acceptance. My only comfort in life and in death is that I belong to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ. A beautifully caligraphed Heidelberg Q/A 1 hangs from the wall above my headboard. My concerns center around the connection professed faith and the working out of it in the Christian’s life.

    I’m fine with WCF 16:5,6. I would only point out that the biblical assessment — which I believe to be God’s gracious assessment — of saints says little about their defilement, weakness, and imperfection. Instead we hear of the likes of Zechariah and Elizabeth, both being “upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.” It is a common thing to highlight the fact that God looks on godly persons as righteous and blameless despite their shortcomings. Perhaps such assessments simply reveal that God does look at the saints through [the lens of] His Son.

  131. Kevin said,

    June 1, 2016 at 9:32 pm

    So let me get this right, you don’t believe you can merit eternal life but you ask us what the Lord will be doing on the last day when he renders it according to what was done in the body. Like many other members of the synagogue of Rome, you read Romans 2 fatally. Thats why I don’t buy that you are a Reformed pastor. And some might think that harsh, but no Reformed have that view of Romans 2. That is a Catholic interpretation. Romans 2 is Paul comparing the believing gentiles to unbelieving Jews. The jbfa alone gentiles were better at obeying the law than the unbelieving Jews. Certainly we will stand before the judgment of God. But Jesus said those who believe have eternal life and have passed out of judgment. So your Roman interpretation can’t hold water. Because according to you God is going to weigh up the goods and the bads and then render eternal life based on that. But that verse in Romans 2 is describing true believers evidenced by obeying the law , and unbelievers who dont. How do we know? Because Paul says in the next chapter no one will be justified by the works of the law. We know it is the moral law because he says thru it comes the knowledge of sin. Throughout Romans Paul has the mosaic law in view, not a new law. 3:20 ” apart from the law” by faith first to last. All human effort is excluded from justification. K

  132. roberty bob said,

    June 1, 2016 at 10:48 pm

    Kevin,

    “Here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether good or evil.” — Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

    If you were to preach this text, what would you say?

    “We live by faith and not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.” — 2 Corinthians 5:7-10

    The Apostle Paul preached about the goods and the bads. How come?

    …..

    You are right, Kevin. I do not believe anyone merits eternal life. I do not believe that any kind of merit system is at play in justification / salvation. I believe in justification by faith in God’s promise. I believe that justifiying faith, as exemplified by Abraham and others, is manifested by what one does (as James says).

  133. Ron said,

    June 2, 2016 at 5:36 am

    RB,

    A relative smattering of your quotes are in italics. I hope you might see the concern.

    “God will not judge our works in relationship to our entrance into the kingdom.” — Kevin at #29

    So you say. Help me out here. Explain what our Lord Jesus means…

    What do you mean by so *you* say? Don’t you agree? Won’t you say that our works don’t get us pardoned and gain us entrance into the kingdom?

    I take it, then, Kevin, that you regard all works done in faith by Christian believers as works of the law that have nothing to do with justification.

    Don’t you agree? Why not affirm this rather than interrogating the position?

    You say that our works are not taken into consideration in justification. OK> In what way, then, or for what purpose does God take them into consideration? If all works are excluded, then why will the Lord bring them up for examination at the Last Day if they carry now weight in the final outcome? That’s what I want to know.

    Sounds like either you disagree or at least aren’t sure whether works play a apart in justification.

    At the Last Day everyone’s works are taken into account for some reason. What is the reason? That’s what I want to know. Why are we going to be given what is due for our works?

    Same comment

    OK Kevin . . . so, you are saying that the Last Day events have nothing to do with our justification. What salvation category does it fall under?

    Why not associate yourself with Kevin and the entire Reformed tradition over works having “nothing to do with our justification?”

    “Can one lose full pardon?” — Ron
    Was the man in Jesus’s story who was fully pardoned for his unplayable debt lose his full pardon? [The Master DID release him from / forgive him of his debt!] Well, when it became evident that the forgiven man was unforgiving toward his own debtors, the Master took back the pardon. The man lost his full pardon.

    This merely corroborates the view that works play some part in justification.

  134. Ron said,

    June 2, 2016 at 5:44 am

    RB, your first quote below should now be set in italics. Thx

    “God will not judge our works in relationship to our entrance into the kingdom.” — Kevin at #29

    So you say. Help me out here. Explain what our Lord Jesus means…

    What do you mean by so *you* say? Don’t you agree? Won’t you say that our works don’t get us pardoned and gain us entrance into the kingdom?

    I take it, then, Kevin, that you regard all works done in faith by Christian believers as works of the law that have nothing to do with justification.

    Don’t you agree? Why not affirm this rather than interrogating the position?

    You say that our works are not taken into consideration in justification. OK> In what way, then, or for what purpose does God take them into consideration? If all works are excluded, then why will the Lord bring them up for examination at the Last Day if they carry now weight in the final outcome? That’s what I want to know.

    Sounds like either you disagree or at least aren’t sure whether works play a apart in justification.

    At the Last Day everyone’s works are taken into account for some reason. What is the reason? That’s what I want to know. Why are we going to be given what is due for our works?

    Same comment

    OK Kevin . . . so, you are saying that the Last Day events have nothing to do with our justification. What salvation category does it fall under?

    Why not associate yourself with Kevin and the entire Reformed tradition over works having “nothing to do with our justification?”

    “Can one lose full pardon?” — Ron
    Was the man in Jesus’s story who was fully pardoned for his unplayable debt lose his full pardon? [The Master DID release him from / forgive him of his debt!] Well, when it became evident that the forgiven man was unforgiving toward his own debtors, the Master took back the pardon. The man lost his full pardon.

    This merely corroborates the view that works play some part in justification.

  135. Ron said,

    June 2, 2016 at 6:01 am

    Keith, Reed, Fowler, whoever…let’s not let RB pull a Leithart here. We’re wasting time and doing RB a grave disservice not to stick with these quotes and similar ones you might find. By affirming works prove faith, as he often does when being questioned about faith’s contribution to justification, he dodges the question. He should really interact with these sorts of troubling quotes. And although he has recently given a better interpretation of the parable in view, he should recant the interpretation put forth in italics above. Again, let’s not let him pull a PL for his sake. He would do well to come to terms with his own quotes. Much of my thinking and approach has been driven by the recollection that he’s a pastor, maybe in the episcopalian tradition…Don’t recall the details.

  136. Kevin said,

    June 2, 2016 at 8:34 am

    Ron, RB is in the same boat as Jason Stellman He read Romans 2 and fatally misunderstand it. He missed the jealousy metaphor and the context of it in the first 3 chapters. Paul says it is the doers of the law who will be justified, not the hearers. But he doesn’t say they will be justified by doing the law. We know that in chapter 3 he says no one will be justified by the law. No law. Dave Anders wantso to say that Paul in 2:13 changes to a new law. But this is wrong. When one reads 1-3 Paul has the mosaic law in view the whole time. He doesn’t change to a new law in one verse. Paul, just as Jesus before him, and God in the OT is trying to make the Jews jealous. He is saying the believing gentiles do the law better than the unbelieving jews who were judging those, while failing to obeye it. He calls theme to repentance. They weren’t believing Jews. Paul asks what advantage has the jew, and it many ways they did. They had the law. But they didn’t obey it because they weren’t believers . Thats when he says in chapter 3 all mouths are shut up. We are all under sin. But RB, like non believing Romanists, quit reading after chapter 2, they miss the gospel just like those who walked away in John 6. K

  137. rfwhite said,

    June 2, 2016 at 8:47 am

    Ron: Thanks very much for that helpful collation of RB’s statements.

    RB: You ask, If all works are excluded, then why will the Lord bring them up for examination at the Last Day if they carry now [read: no] weight in the final outcome? … You also ask, Why are we going to be given what is due for our works? I take it that this is the core of your concerns.

    RB, can you agree that the good works of the believer will be brought up for examination in the Last Day, not as the grounds of his acquittal, but as the evidence of his state in grace? If you cannot agree with that statement, why not? Thanks for the help.

  138. roberty bob said,

    June 2, 2016 at 10:01 am

    to rfwhite @ 137

    I agree that the good works of believers will be brought up for examination in the Last Day, not as the grounds of his acquittal, but as the evidence of his state in grace. The God-pleasing works are strongly encouraged with the Last Day in view [“we make it our aim to please Him” — Paul].

  139. Kevin said,

    June 2, 2016 at 11:07 am

    What do you mean by ” The God pleasing works are strongly encouraged with the last day in view” In view for what? If I’m already aquitted Ephesians 1:7 says I HAVE redemption, already justified Romans 5:1, 8:1, and have passed out of judgment and posess eternal life as a gift, am sealed in the Spirit, seated in the heavenlies, with an inheritance that can’t fade away, then what is in view? It can’t be pardon! So try again. What is in view? I’m not denying believers persevere in good works, but it is God who sanctified us. Jesus said sanctify them by your word. He calls the rag tag Corinthians already sanctified 1 Corinthians 1. In Hebrews 10:10 it again speaKS of Sanctification in the past, as well as 1 Corinthians 1:30. The moment the believer believes he is guaranteed salvation, and that’s why we can know in 1 John 5:13. Romans 5:10 says we will be saved by HIS life, not ours. It’s called good news not wait and see. K

  140. rfwhte said,

    June 2, 2016 at 11:24 am

    138 RB: granted your agreement that the believer’s good works are not the grounds of his acquittal but the evidence of his state in grace at the Last Day, let me go back to the words of the question you asked earlier: what weight do the believer’s good works carry in the final outcome of that examination?

  141. rfwhte said,

    June 2, 2016 at 11:33 am

    138 RB: let me approach the question I asked in 138 differently … In the spirit of Kevin’s remarks in 139, do you agree that the believer is in the state of grace both now and also at the Last Day? Is the believer’s present state of grace revocable? Why or why not? Again, thanks for the help.

  142. roberty bob said,

    June 2, 2016 at 11:38 am

    Kevin, the Apostle Paul says “We make it our goal to please Him, for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

    So, I take that as strong encouragement to live in a God-pleasing way in view of the judgment seat of Christ, where each will receive what is due him for the things done while in the body.

    Why does it upset you that someone like me is encouraged to live in a God-pleasing way with the judgment seat of Christ in view?

    I imagine that you yourself make it your goal to please the Lord.

    Why does it upset you that I make it my goal?

    I agree. In Christ we have redemption, the forgiveness of our sins. In Christ we have an inheritance that cannot fade away. That does not diminish the fact that ALL must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may RECEIVE WHAT IS DUE for the things done while in the body. Of course you may have the assurance of your salvation / your justification / your eternal life here and now as you trust in the Lord. But you must still appear before Christ to receive what is due for the things done while living in your body. So must I.

    Or, do you interpret this differently?

  143. June 2, 2016 at 11:47 am

    Define ” RECEIVE WHAT IS DUE” please be specific, does Paul mean salvation? And please don’t turn this into Im saying you should not live a life of pleasing to God. You won’t say that your works don’t contribute to your salvation, they are ONLY consequential to true faith. Please explain what Paul means by NOT OF WORKS, NOT THAT OF YOURSELVES, NOT ACCORDING TO ANYTHING WE HAVE DONE. EXPLAIN? God bless

  144. roberty bob said,

    June 2, 2016 at 11:52 am

    to rfwhite . . .

    The believer is in a state of grace now and will be in a state of grace at the Last Day.

    Christ and the Apostles give us many encouragements to make our calling and election sure [add to your faith goodness . . . etc.]so that we may receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord.

    “But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this though our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [Irrevocable!] So, then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you . . . .” “May the Lord direct your hearts into God’s love and Christ’s perseverance.”

  145. rfwhte said,

    June 2, 2016 at 11:57 am

    144 RB: To clarify … So do you agree that the believer’s present state of grace is irrevocable? Why or why not?

  146. roberty bob said,

    June 2, 2016 at 12:07 pm

    Life with the Lord has always been based upon faith. Had Adam put his faith in the Lord, he would not have allowed himself to questioned what God said about the forbidden fruit. Abraham, the father of faith, did not win the Lord’s favor through his works. He believed God’s promise, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. The verity of his faith was later manifested by what he did. His faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

    The good works of believers corroborate their faith. Good works are not in conflict with, nor corrupting of, the believer’s faith.

  147. roberty bob said,

    June 2, 2016 at 12:09 pm

    God’s call[ing] is irrevocable.

  148. Kevin said,

    June 2, 2016 at 1:17 pm

    ” good works are not in conflict with the believers faith” They are in justification! according to Paul. Do agree RB? Yes or No? If you cant definively say Yes, you are a fraud. Here is your chance. Is s man’s justification final when he believes excluded from all works? Yes or No? If you cant answer clearly yes you are a fraud. These are easy questions for those whose pardon is permanent and whose salvation is secured only in the blood and righteouness of Christ thru faith ALONE. If you come back with some diatribe unable to answer a simple question, then you are hardly trusting God alone. Ive been following you here for 2 years. Out of abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Rf, Ron, Reed, myself, would answer in a second that our works have no place in our justification, and are only and always our reasonable service of worship. K

  149. rfwhite said,

    June 2, 2016 at 3:09 pm

    RB: I regret it if this is rehash for you and others, but let me rephrase again in hopes of better communication.

    Is the believer’s present justification revocable? Why or why not?

    Is the believer’s present pardon revocable? Why or why not?

  150. Ron said,

    June 2, 2016 at 7:04 pm

    Great questioning guys…

    RB,

    In my recent highly italicizes collated post you ask many questions. A few possible reasons for asking such questions come to mind. But before reading on, maybe consider quickly reviewing the questions I selected?

    Questions that come to my mind:

    1. Are you trying to flesh out whether Kevin or anyone else is antinomian?

    2. Do you appreciate K and the rest of us aren’t antinomian yet you just disagree that works have anything to do with justification?

    3. Do you disagree with your former exegesis of the parable and now realize that pardon is irrevocable?

    4. Are you seeking personal answers to these questions you’ve asked and just don’t know where to place works within the overal scope of salvation (if not under the umbrella of justification)?

    If none of the above, then why the questions? They seem to run contrary to one believing that works have absolutely nothing to do with justification. They also seem to suggest that our pardon has an already-not-yet aspect to it that awaits final consumation. I find that to be a dreadful employment of an otherwise useful redemptive-historical paradigm.

    Thanks.

  151. roberty bob said,

    June 2, 2016 at 7:58 pm

    “Trust in the Lord and do good.” — Psalm 37:3

    “Add to your faith goodness.” — 2 Peter 1:5

    “You see that a person is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone.” — James 2:24

    Why does James come to this conclusion if works are in conflict with faith as pertaining to justification? James views the good works that are done through faith as confirming of one’s faith.

    Faith and goodness [good and godly actions] are not in conflict, not even in justification. How can they be in conflict, when both are commended and encouraged by the inspired prophets, Christ, and his apostles?

    The self-righteous striver who believes he stands in God’s favor, or has earned God’s favor, for having done good works is not living by faith and will not be justified. Saul of Tarsus found that out. His teaching in Romans and Galatians and Philippians expounds on that finding.

    I have said repeatedly that I came to Christ as a repentant sinner, believing on His name by faith in his atoning blood. I did not boast of any good works, nor do I boast of any today.

  152. Reed Here said,

    June 2, 2016 at 8:23 pm

    Yet you won’t/can’t clarify what is your bug-a-boo RB.

    Answer, please, Dr. White’s no. 149.

    Consider Ron’s questions in no. 150.

  153. Ron said,

    June 2, 2016 at 8:25 pm

    RB,

    You’re evasive, either intentionally or unintentionally. Either way, you’re evasive. That’s the hallmark of FV. They don’t realize it but they learned that from the devil. I’ve said enough.

    Goodbye.

  154. Kevin said,

    June 2, 2016 at 8:47 pm

    ” Faith and goodness are not in conflict, not even in justification ” I have been saying it for 2 years here, and now you finally admit it. You are a Roman Catholic. Thanks, it only took you forever to be stsightforward. Incidentally, the reason I was sure you were a member of the Roman synagogue is because they never answer the questionsame I asked you, and you didn’t either. I asked what Paul means by we are SAVED not according to anything we have done, not that of ourselves, not of works, to the one who does not work, if it’s by works itso not of grace. And just like every Romanists I ever talked to, never an explanation. You know why? There isn’t one when you believe your works save you. Repent and believe the gospel, or your righteousness will have to exceed that of the pharisees. God isn’t like your father, He doesn’t relent. If you are being justified by law, it requires perfect, personal and perpetual obedience. Works seeking justification are abomination before God. K

  155. Kevin said,

    June 3, 2016 at 8:10 am

    RB, do you agree with RC doctrine that we are justified by the righteouness of the law done in us ? Or do you believe that we are justified by faith alone without the law? A righteouness that comes by faith? Moses preached this to the Jews, he said that the man who practices the righteousness based on the law shall live by that righteousness, but the righteouness based on faith says the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart. You can’t mix them. Are men justified apart from the righteouness of the law done in us, or not? Please give a direct answer. Do you believe that Christ is the beginning of the law for righteousness, or Christ is the end of the law for righteousness?!

  156. William Scott said,

    June 6, 2016 at 8:38 pm

    I’m not FV but I am predestinarian and I also believe that grace can be lost (note: I haven’t read most of the correspondence with Roberty Bob, so I’m not trying to affirm or deny any particular things he’s saying).

    Augustinians (including Martin Luther, and many of the other great reformers) have always taught that God gives the gift of faith without the gift of perseverance to many of the non-elect, whereas He gives the gift of faith with the gift of perseverance exclusively to His elect. It goes without saying that Luther’s teaching that a believer can fall from grace is not a denial of sola fides. The teaching of sola fides from Luther and other reformers who risked their life for the Gospel affirmed the danger of falling from salvation while affirming the imputed active righteousness of Christ to each and everyone who believes and consequently the truth that we stand justified solely on the alien righteousness of Christ and not on our works (which at their best are still filthy rags worthy of eternal damnation).

    Further, the reality of falling from grace does not entail a denial of the great truth of infallible assurance spoken of in the Westminster Confession and other documents of the reformers and their descendants.

    Simply put, these reformers taught that one cannot give himself over to the dominion of sin without driving out the faith which alone covers us continually with the perfect forensic covering of Christ’s righteousness. As these reformers taught, to drive out faith is to simultaneously drive out the saving indwelling of the Spirit and to come once more under the damnable dominion of the unregenerate old man. Consequently, the words of admonition from Paul, test yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Know you not that you are in Christ, except you be reprobate.

    Hello Kevin–you said:
    “Repent and believe the gospel, or your righteousness will have to exceed that of the pharisees.”
    Luther and every other reformer that I know of affirmed explicitly in reference to this warning of Christ that the believer’s righteousness (or, holiness) had to exceed the phony holiness of the Pharisees. Scripture demands on the pain of damnation the fruits of genuine holiness in the believer’s life (without holiness no man shall see God). However, all honest believers will acknowledge in view of the perfect, indescribable holiness of the Law of God that they are at all times and in all ways the vilest of sinners (and all the more as the believer matures and comes to see with greater and greater clarity how terrible the sin that remains in his heart is).

    I’m out of here for right, now but I may drop by to see what if anything is going on in the next week or two (or four).

  157. William Scott said,

    June 6, 2016 at 8:41 pm

    p.s. As always, I have to apologize for the poor writing and grammar in my posts…

  158. William Scott said,

    June 6, 2016 at 8:50 pm

    p.p.s. The point of my post is not to prove that the reformers who taught that grace could be lost were correct. Rather, it was to point out that this belief is not at all antagonistic to the Good News proclaimed so well by the reformers (although it is admittedly contrary to certain teachings of notable reformers like Calvin and Beza).

  159. Kevin said,

    June 7, 2016 at 12:27 pm

    William, my guess is you haven’t read Roberty Bob, as you admit. The issue in this conversation isn’t about lost grace, it’s about what role works play in our justification. And that is black and white issue in scripture. Not according to anything we have done, not that of yourselves , not of works, binds the process justification heretics like RB and Pete Rambo to a false gospel. Again, Mark 1:15 our Lord said ” repent and believe in the gospel” The gospel is told and believed in, not done. These guys can equivocate all they want, they are saying we are justified by regeneration and sanctification. But Paul says we are justified by faith without the law, not with it. That doesn’t allow for the works of the law done in us. So these judaizers who think their woks get them in in some way should get paid their wage. Something they better think long and hard about. Galatians 5:1-4 is a stern warning to those ” who would be justified by law” ( what you do), they aren’t in grace. Therefore, be perfect. K

  160. roberty bob said,

    June 13, 2016 at 10:44 am

    “Repent and believe the gospel, or your righteousness will have to exceed that of the pharisees.” — Kevin

    You are saying that unless I repent and believe the gospel, my only hope for salvation is for my righteousness to exceed that of the pharisees. You are implying that the pharisees held to a high standard of righteousness that was virtually impossible to surpass. Our Lord Jesus exposed the low standard of righteousness practiced by the pharisees, and proclaimed that “unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees and teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus teaches us how to obey many specific commandments in a way that will ensure that we will exceed the soft, self-serving standard of the pharisees.

    Those who repent and believe the gospel, Kevin, will obey the Lord Jesus Christ and exceed the righteousness of the pharisees.

    Our Lord does not teach us how to surpass the pharisees in righteousness in order to drive us to the conclusion obeying Jesus and seeking first the Kingdom of God is beyond our capacity as believers. On the contrary, Jesus teaches us how to surpass the pharisees in righteousness so that by grace and in the power of the Spirit we will heed his words and put them into practice [Matt. 7:24ff.].

  161. Kevin said,

    June 13, 2016 at 8:38 pm

    Ya, the Pharisee thanked God for all his righteouness too, just like you judaizer RB. It was the tax collector that went home righteous, not your brother. Paul says justification is WITHOUT THE LAW, but you say it’s the law works done in us. There is a special place reserved for you, right next to your brother, the Pharisee at the front of the Temple. He thought his grace inspired works reserved him a special place with God, and God spit him out,p. The rich young ruler obeyed his whole life,and thought he lacked a little righteousness. Jesus exposed his heart. And He said this “with man it is IMPOSSIBLE , but with God all things are possible. Because of your blindness and unrepentant heart you can not see the plain verses that say it’s impossible with man, and that He SAVED us and CALLED us NOT ACCORDING TO ANYTHING WE HAVE DONE . Go read about your brethren in Romans 9:32. They believed in grace. Paul was blameless before the law and counted all dung to be found in His righteousness by faith. As an evangelist of the gospel you have been warned about the get in by grace stay in by works crowd like Tom Wright and you, you deny the gospel of scripture.

  162. roberty bob said,

    June 13, 2016 at 11:26 pm

    Clearly, in the Sermon on the Mount, Christ is giving one example after another of the righteousness that exceeds that of the pharisees and teachers of the law. He is saying that this is way you are to live if you wish to enter the kingdom. The way of the pharisees and teachers of the law was a dead end; the way of Jesus leads to life. “Whoever hears my words and puts them into practice is like the wise man who builds his house upon the rock.” The wise man is the man of faith who obeys the words of our Lord Jesus. He is the man who is saved!

    But you read the Sermon on the Mount differently, don’t you? You don’t believe anyone hears the words of Jesus and puts them into practice because it is impossible. Christ’s exhortation to hear and do is not meant to be taken seriously because every attempt to DO what Jesus asks of us only leads to damnable self-righteousness. That’s what you keep telling me, so I must believe that you mean it.

  163. Ron said,

    June 14, 2016 at 6:12 am

    Kevin,

    Unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees etc. is not a reference to imputed righteousness. RB is right. The justified will have righteous deeds. The unjustified none.

  164. Kevin said,

    June 14, 2016 at 8:32 am

    Ron, I didn’t say that it was. Just because RB said I said it, you believed it. My point to him, is that he believes our righteousness figures into our justification. The law requires personal, perpetual, perfect obedience. No one said that we don’t do righteous deeds. But justification is without the law 3:20, so law deeds done in us can’t be the ground of our justification, or else according to RB, Christ is the beginning of the law for righteousness to all who believe. But hey Ron thanks for your support.

  165. roberty bob said,

    June 14, 2016 at 8:48 am

    Kevin, I never said that law deeds done by us are the ground of our justification. For by grace you are saved through faith. Faith is revealed as true faith or false faith by the actions or deeds done in the body. True faith hears the words of Jesus and puts them into practice. True faith obeys the commands of Christ and exceeds the righteousness of the pharisees and teachers of the law. The law is fulfilled by Christ and by all who are in Christ. See Romans 8:3,4.

  166. Kevin said,

    June 14, 2016 at 2:02 pm

    ” The law is fulfilled by.Christ and all who are in Christ” Nothing more needs to be said. Sorry Charlie, Christ lived the law in my place and HE fulfilled all righteouness. But you cant resist smuggling your character into God’s work of grace. How you doing with that law fulfilling RB? So justification includes sanctification. Heretic !

  167. Kevin said,

    June 14, 2016 at 2:07 pm

    Incidentally RB, Roman 8: 3 says what the law could not do GOD did, ot was Christ who fulfilled the law, in us, not by us, the verb is passive heretic. Theologians, even some of your Roman ones agree it is Christ who condemned sin in the flesh. IN US not BY US.


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: