Gentle-Hardness with the Hebrew Roots Movement

by Reed DePace

O.k., I’ve been admonished twice now that I may be speaking too harshly, without proper biblical gentleness, in some of my comments on the Hebrew Roots Movement (HRM). O.k., acknowledging that possibility, let me instead simply lay out from Scripture why I believer strong, even severe words are biblically called for when responding to the HRM.

Let me say up front that the more I hear from proponents of the HRM the more I am persuaded it is a modern form of the Pharisaical-Judaizing heresy condemned in Scripture. More broadly I think these criticisms also apply to a large part of the Messianic Christianity movement (MCM). This follows because the HRM is both a child of the MCM and is the deep doctrinal well which waters the growth of the MCM. I recognize that there exist Messianic Jews who shun with horror the errors of the HRM and more broadly those in the MCM. My criticisms do not apply to them.

In my own pastoral calling I’ve have had to help families affected by the HRM/MCM. It was this need that first prompted my study of this subject a couple of years back. In part I sympathize with those attracted to the HRM/MCM. I acknowledge and affirm their desire for a better relationship with God.

One of the greatest sadnesses in my community is the problem of gospel-presumptive Christians. These are not nominal Christians, folks who are nothing more than culturally Christian. No, these are folks for whom Christianity is a regular part of their everyday life. They have a rudimentary grasp of the basics of the gospel. Yet they have little practical understanding of how to live by the gospel (Rom 1:16-17, Gal 2:20, Col 2:6-7, etc.). As a result they are left to trying to live the Christian life through the use of their own resources (i.e., living by sight, not by faith; 2Co 5:7). So when such folks run across a new (old) teaching that promises a whole new experience of God’s power; that offers out the fulfillment of Jesus’ promise of the abundant life (John 10:10), it is understandable how the HRM can be attractive to them.

The problem is that what is attracting them is not a better understanding of the gospel at all but something straight from the pit of Hell.

Yes, hard words, but gently offered. Even more importantly, I am not offering a poetic effort at hyperbole to drive home a point. Rather, it is a boiled down, rather basic and unvarnished summary of what the Bible itself teaches about the HRM. Consider this (dates approximate):

AD 39-40: The Church in Jerusalem concluded that God has rescinded the Mosaic Law’s Jew-Gentile separation provisions (Acts 10-11).

AD 49-50 (the exact order of the following series is immaterial to the points being made):

  • Paul confronts Peter and Barnabas for their hypocrisy in separating themselves from Gentile believers in the Church in Galatia.
  • Later, Paul writes to the Galatians to warn them in the strongest terms against (supposed) Christians who were teaching them that Gentile believers needed to keep the Mosaic ceremonial/worship laws in order to be right with God.
  • The Church concluded that Gentile believers ARE NOT to be subjected to the ceremonial/worship provisions of the Mosaic Law (Acts 15).

AD 62-68 (again, the exact dates for writing each of these is immaterial to the points made):

  • Paul writes (First) Timothy, offering him instruction for his pastoral duties (Ephesian Church).
  • Paul writes to Titus, giving him counsel on his pastoral duties (Cretan Church).
  • Paul writes further instruction to (Second) Timothy in the discharge of his pastoral duties.
  • In all three letters one of the critical issues Paul addressed was the heresy of the Judaizers, those who would require Gentile Christians to practice the Mosaic ceremonial/worship laws.

Did you follow the progression of these things? From eliminating Jew-Gentile separation, to removal of Mosaic law provisions on Gentiles, to fighting against those who would place Christians back under slavery to the Mosaic Law. This is as serious as it gets. This is a matter of life and death. Accordingly, the Scriptures speak of these things in the hardest terms. You can see this in the Scriptures themselves:

And he [Peter] said to them [the Gentiles in Cornelius’ household], “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.” (Act 10:28-29 ESV)

[Peter speaking to the Jewish Christians in the Jerusalem Church] “If then God gave the same gift to them [Gentile Christians] as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” (Act 11:17-18)

Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in– who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery– to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. (Gal 2:4-5)

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Gal 2:15-16)

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” (Gal 3:10)

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (Gal 5:4)

I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is. But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! (Gal 5:10-12)

But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them [Gentile believers] and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them,

Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?” (Act 15:5-10)

As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. (1Ti 1:3-4)

The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions. (1Ti 1:5-7)

Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. (1Ti 4:7-8)

If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. (1Ti 6:3-5)

O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” (1Ti 6:20)

This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. (Tit 1:13-14)

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned. (Tit 3:9-11)

Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. (2Ti 2:23-26)

But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. (2Ti 3:1-5)

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. (2Ti 4:3-4)

Consider the severity with which Scripture speaks about the teaching that ceremonial/worship aspects of the Mosaic Law still apply to Christians. Emasculation! Devoted to myths! Foolish controversies! Depraved minds! Puffed up with conceit! Unhealthy cravings! Warped, sinful, self-condemned! In the very same passage where Paul teaches us to correct with gentleness he observes that those who buy into the HRM are trapped in the snare of the Devil! Clearly gentleness does not preclude hard words.

If you think I’m missing something here, just stop for a moment a contemplate Paul’s imprecatory warning in Galatians towards those who teach the HRM. Emasculate themselves! What a horrible thing to say against anyone– unless their error is so horribly more dangerous. And that’s just it. The errors taught by the HRM are so egregious that the hardest terms are needed. To be sure they must be spoken without animosity or rancor. Yet in order to be truth spoken in love the severity of the words must match the severity of the danger of the errors!

Or, at least that’s the pattern of Scripture on this subject.

Those who in any way teach that the ceremonial/worship aspects of the Mosaic Law in any practical manner still apply, who teach that the Christian’s relationship with God in any way is affected by his practicing or not practicing these Mosaic Law provisions, are teaching something that the NT says is from Satan himself (i.e., a snare of the devil). We must therefore, for the sake of the souls of both the speakers and the hearers, warn them of the seriousness of their danger. We must with Paul ask God to emasculate their wickedness, to stop up their teaching that they might no longer seek to return God’s people to a slavery that will only destroy them and thereby rob God of the fullness of glory due to him.

The Hebrew Roots Movement, according to the teaching of the NT, is deadly. Accordingly it calls for just as hard an imprecatory warning as found in the Scriptures.

I pray for the souls of the men commenting here in support of the HRM. May God indeed be merciful and grant them repentance. I do not hate them; I hold them no ill will. With Scripture I do offer them the gentle-hardness that Scripture uses to condemn their error. May we all see our errors, and rejoice at the throne of Jesus together.

by Reed DePace

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21 Comments

  1. June 7, 2013 at 8:49 pm

    Ah, Reed – you’ve been hearing from the citizens of the Kingdom of Nice about your alleged harsh language. Heaven forfend that someone should call a spade a spade when it comes to heretical, unbiblical teachings! I say: good for you, and keep it up!

  2. Phil D. said,

    June 7, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    I think you’re right on the mark with this, Rev. DePace, both in content and urgency, Thank you for your diligence.

  3. greenbaggins said,

    June 7, 2013 at 10:24 pm

    Good work, Reed. I agree wholeheartedly. What I have noticed is that they become obsessed with (some!) of the OT laws, and grossly ignore the whoppers, like the Ten Commandments. They feel no compunction about lying about our position, for instance. I have called them on this already, by saying that we do not believe in the ABROGATION of ANY OT law. We believe that Christ’s coming changes the application of it, in conformity with the principles of general equity. But they still go on and on about how we believe in the abrogation of the law, as if “change” and “abrogation” were complete synonyms, which they most certainly are not. I wonder if they wear shirts that are half cotton half polyester, thus violating the OT law about not wearing clothes made from two different kinds of cloth.

  4. June 8, 2013 at 8:04 am

    Praise the Lord for these timely warnings about HRM – I was not aware of this movement or the beliefs; but the posts here at Green Baggins have been extremely informative and helpful. May the good Lord bless you for warning His flock of false teaching and its dangers.

  5. michael said,

    June 8, 2013 at 5:47 pm

    The big irony here for me is the severity with which Paul, not Saul of Tarsus, goes about his mission! Here’s the long version suscinctly put forth by Paul:

    At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.” And I said, “Who are you, Lord?” And the Lord said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles— to whom I am sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.” “Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. (Acts 26:13-20 ESV)

    He was task with the specific mission to speak the Word, and for our sake, the Holy Spirit had it canonized, that helps one turn from darkness to Light, from the power of Satan to God!

    Think about it? Saul of Tarsus was having people’s lives disrupted and the consequence was rather severe for any who held to the Faith once delivered to the Saints! Now, as you cite from his writings the temporal severity is no longer in view but replaced with the more permanent severity of eternal wrath!

    Peter, early on, was speaking, most likely without realizing it, severely too, in that the confrontation he and Paul had later on somewhat establishes that fact. Here’s Peter speaking to these rulers what Moses said and presumably he nor they were comprehending? Your article bring this fact out clearly.

    Moses said, “The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.” (Acts 3:22, 23 ESV)

    At first Paul was seeing to it many were being thrown into prison to be destroyed! Peter then falls prey to the HRM of his day, so to speak, after quoting the severity of consequence for insisting on not holding to the ceremonial/worship aspects of the Mosaic Law, withdraws from the Gentiles when the Jews showed up!

    Finally your point near the end about practicing Mosaic Laws, ceremonial/worship aspects of it that is, is in fact teaching what Satan wants. You cannot get a more severe or strong a condemnation of this than from these Words of Jesus, here:

    “I know your tribulation and your poverty ( but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. (Revelation 2:9 ESV)

    And

    Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you. (Revelation 3:9 ESV)

    So, yes, gently speak or phrase by writing in at least the strongest of terms as you have with the preceding articles and this one, but be warned what Jesus said about when you do!
    He said two things I’d remind the reader,

    “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household. (Matthew 10:24, 25 ESV)

    And

    “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. (John 15:18, 19 ESV)

    I leave off with this:

    From the fruit of a man’s mouth his stomach is satisfied; he is satisfied by the yield of his lips. Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits. (Proverbs 18:20, 21 ESV)

  6. June 10, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    Hello Reed,
    I’m kind of confused about your post. It seems you call all those who follow Torah Judiazers when Yeshua Himself said Judiazers were, in fact, in conflict with Torah/Law of Moses by holding their manmade teachings above Torah (truth) itself. I’m wondering where any in the so called “HRM” have required anyone to be circumcised? In fact we all know, that the Judiazers themselves mentioned in Acts 15:1 were saying that circumcision is required “for salvation”. Can anyone find anywhere in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy the “requirement” for circumcision to be in Israel? In Leviticus 12:1-3 it command circumcision of male children born. Deuteronomy 10:16 and 30:6 speaks of circumcision of the heart. There are places outside those books where circumcision is done on the part of willing participants in obedience but nowhere is it a requirement within “The Law of Moses” unless you are to engage in Passover (Exodus 12:48). If circumcision is such an issue, why do we find Paul circumcising Timothy in Acts 16:3 because of (the stumbling block it would be) the Jews there? Can anyone say “love your neighbor”? Does this make Paul a judiazer? Not in the least!! We do see recorded that Titus could not be convinced to do so in Galatians 2:3. Once again it’s voluntary, not obligatory.
    The issue at hand in Acts 15:1 was, according to these of the Circumcision Party/Judiazers was salvation was not complete without circumcision. Not following Torah which all the apostles did, in fact, do (Paul himself clearly states such in Acts 24:14). The “yoke too heavy” was the traditions of men (circumcision for salvation, one example of many), not Torah. Yeshua preached, in fullness, Torah (they are after all the words of the Father Yeshua said Himself said He only spoke) and said His yoke was easy and His burden light. John confirms this saying in 1 John 5:3 that the “COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT BURDENSOME” which is in agreement with Moses in Deut 30:11.
    There really needs to be some honesty when looking at Acts 15th chapter. It is true Acts 15:1 is what they were talking about in verse 10 and different that what they instructed the gentile believers to do in verses 19-21. Notice we see gentile believers being taught Moses in the synagogues on every Sabbath? Could it be, these newly grafted people were actually learning about their faith from Moses? Say it isn’t so!! Also notice that the 4 things they were told to immediately abstain from were components of cult harlotry/idolatry and in complete defiance of Torah itself!! What we see in Acts 15 is the exact thing Yeshua said in Matt 23rd chapter. The same still goes on today with those who claim to teach the word of YHVH and deny the Torah. They are exactly the description in the rest of Matt 23rd chapter. They get hung up on whether someone is following Torah exactly or not (according to their traditions) and judging Yeshua’s disciples as they try to do so. They judge those who would follow YHVH’s breathed instructions and choose to reject the traditions of men. They keep the parts of Torah that they can personally benefit from (tithing, etc…) and reject as abrogated what they partition out as ceremonial (of which is the very definition, according to YHVH, of loving Him) reducing the truth to only a partial truth.
    It’s interesting that you have claimed in the past that these HRM people are basically blind followers of Talmudic teachings when the Lords Prayer recited in modern Christianity is most definitely related to Talmud itself!! One only has to look up the Kiddesh to see where The Lord’s Prayer was derived from.
    Yeshua’ statements are so true in Matt 23:23, but then again, Yeshua was speaking about observing the whole Torah and not just cherry pick which parts you claim are still applicable and replace with traditions of men the things you want to neglect.
    It is interesting to note, according to you, those who follow the breathed words of YHVH are following doctrines of demons straight from the pit of Hell. Strong words that I sincerely hope you do not have to give account of someday (but according to scripture you will, see Matt 12:25-37) when you try to explain to YHVH Himself how you partitioned His Torah into parts that needed to be observed and those that didn’t and then taught others to do so (see Matt 5:19).
    It would seem we have today what Jude warned about in his letter to the beloved of the Father in Yeshua:
    Jud 1:11 Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error and perished in Korah’s rebellion.
    We very much have those today (and for a very long time first in the Roman Catholic Church and of it’s rebellious daughter called Protestantism) who have developed a form of worship to the Father of their own kind outside of YHVH’s breathed prescription and are gaining wealth from it convincing people to give money to them to build their brand/denomination and all the time railing against the authority of Moses. None of which Yeshua and the apostles had anything to do with.
    As far as praying for me. Honestly Reed, please don’t. It might be a waste of time:
    Pro 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.
    It’s clear that you are not interested in an honest dialogue. With this I will simply move on and leave you to your mutual affirmation society.

    Shalom

  7. Cris Dickason said,

    June 11, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    Reed:

    Thank you for fully fleshing out your background and reasons for concern, and the basis for your clear and frank postings: loyalty to your Lord and his word and faithfully discharging your pastoral duties to Christ’s people. This is no random comfy-armchair discussion, or posts aimed to stir up a discussion. This is good work on behalf of God’s people.

    I appreciate the little timeline of the apostolic church you’ve laid out.

    I think you and Lane have walked a careful balance here in these topics. There is much continuity from old to new and from first to second/last.

    Take those adjectives with respect to covenant & testament, for sure, but even more importantly, and superseding any issues of Mosaic to Apostolic continuity/discontinuity, there’s this progression in redemptive history:

    from Adam to Christ

    from first Adam to Last Adam.

    And while Paul is quite plain that Gentile believers are children of Abraham and the promise, no less than Jews who believe, that is based on the fact that the Mosaic covenant does not supplant or supersede the Abrahamic. It then becomes quite telling that Romans 5 (following on Romans 4) does not introduce the Christ as Second Abraham or Last Abraham, but, as noted above, He is Second or Last Man

    For all the times Paul, in Romans mentions “we” or “we Jews” and still sees himself in some ways as a Jew, and has anguish for his kinsmen (Rom 9.1ff), there is never, ever a hint of an idea that the Messianic community of the Lord Jesus is supposed to be an inner, enlightened group within the Jewish synagogue. There is never, ever a hint in Paul that the Gentile mission was a mistake, or that it had erred when the gospel mission would establish a church because the synagogue had rejected the gospel message, the gospel messenger, and the gospel’s Lord. Paul was the apostle to the uncircumcised, but the message was not, “Be circumcised.” (Galatians, through out).

    -=Cris=-

  8. JGIG said,

    June 11, 2013 at 8:31 pm

    Thanks for this post. It’s good to see that more pastors seeing this as an issue creeping aggressively into the Body and stepping out in gentle boldness against it. “A hard word gently offered . . . ” Very well done!

    From one who has been engaging in the HRM arena for several years,
    -JGIG
    (Joyfully Growing In Grace)

  9. Tom said,

    June 12, 2013 at 12:03 pm

    Reed,

    I’ve been interacting with HRM types for many years now. I knew one (gentile) fellow who went so far as to be physically circumcised to complete his spiritual journey. Some of these folks insist that “Hebrew” believers who did not follow various customs (e.g., circumcising their male children) were actually in sin.

    You should be applauded for this exposé/analysis. Works-righteousness is undoubtedly at the heart of this movement, although that is generally denied by the participants.

  10. June 17, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    You may also begin to see why one of the tenets in the HRM is that Yeshua is the Living Torah. That is a key false teaching in the HRM designed to take your focus off of the Living Christ Who did the work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the sending of His promised Holy Spirit and to put your focus on Torah instead. It is the attempt to replace the Living Christ with the written Law. Did Torah do all the things that Christ did? No! Then how can Yeshua be the Living Torah? Torah is a partial revelation of God’s Word. Yeshua/Jesus is the FULL and LIVING expression of God Who bled and died and rose again to fulfill the promises of God.

  11. descriptivegrace said,

    June 28, 2013 at 10:42 pm

    From what I’ve seen the Messianics are fully committed to Paul and justification by faith alone. They’re not Ebionites. I’ve tried to get them to repudiate Paul on some of their blogs, and they call me the heretic. “What are you talking about? Paul is an inspired writer: justification is by faith alone.” “But you guys are supposed to be Jewish Christians, right, like Ebionites? Shouldn’t you throw Paul in the garbage like them?” “Look; we’re just Baptists who like to pretend to be Jews and put on a tallis! That’s all. I’m a Baptist pastor with a yarmulke on my head.”

  12. Reed Here said,

    June 29, 2013 at 10:13 am

    Dr. Jordan: you know full well that those following the HRM affirm with one side of their mouths JBFA, and then with the other, and Mosaic Law keeping is required for sanctification.

    DO all Messianics say that. No, never said they did.

    It is an issue of equivocation, which I think you understand better than many.

  13. james jordan said,

    June 29, 2013 at 10:40 am

    Reed, I don’t think its any different from you Reformed guys preaching sabbath keeping. You say you don’t do it legalistically, that’s its just gratitude for salvation. But hearing you argue about it from the outside it doesn’t always sound that way. So I think you ought to give them the benefit of the doubt. You may think that HRM affirms “Mosaic Law keeping is required for sanctification” (and who knows, maybe that is what they mean) but they might think that you Westminster types affirm that sabbath-keeping is required for sanctification(!) and who knows, maybe you do. Besides this, aren’t you conflating justification with sanctification here? So what if they do affirm that “Mosaic Law keeping is required for sanctification” so long as they see sanctification as AFTER justification, aren’t they in agreement with you? Or do the Reformed actually see justification and sanctification as one and the same as the blogger Paul’s Passing Thoughts says? Because if that were the case, then you don’t truly believe in justification by faith alone after all.

  14. Reed Here said,

    June 29, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    JAMES (NOT Dr.) Jordan: Mistaking you for someone else, I’ll re-phrase this comment.

    Your comments here demonstrate that either: 1) you do not understand the reformed understanding of Scripture, or 2) you don’t care to understand it.

    Either way, please go educate yourself further. Then please come back and you’ll agree that your previous comments do NOT righteously judge our convictions.

    Until then …

  15. Dr DeRidder said,

    June 29, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    With the Anglican church debacle , the Theonomists’ (James B Jordan et al)switch to anarchy, the HRM breathing down everyones back, and The reformed Churchs’ puzzlement with FV, the effects have been heavy use of the Tiber,

  16. Reed Here said,

    June 29, 2013 at 10:47 pm

    James Jordan: if you wish to make a biblically relevant comment to the subject of this thread, please do. If all you want to do is use this thread as a place to grind your ax, to misrepresent, to attack strawmen, please respect the blog owner and do not post.

  17. July 5, 2013 at 12:19 pm

    Those who in any way teach that the ceremonial/worship aspects of the Mosaic Law in any practical manner still apply, who teach that the Christian’s relationship with God in any way is affected by his practicing or not practicing these Mosaic Law provisions, are teaching something that the NT says is from Satan himself (i.e., a snare of the devil). We must therefore, for the sake of the souls of both the speakers and the hearers, warn them of the seriousness of their danger. We must with Paul ask God to emasculate their wickedness, to stop up their teaching that they might no longer seek to return God’s people to a slavery that will only destroy them and thereby rob God of the fullness of glory due to him.

  18. james jordan said,

    July 6, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    @Jerald Z. Fowler
    What about Christians who’ve transferred the Sabbath to Sunday and believe they should keep it?

  19. Reed Here said,

    July 6, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    James, study the arguments for why the Bible demonstrates the change from Saturday to Sunday. The change is biblically commanded. Refusing to call Sunday the Sabbath today is a violation of the 4th C. I can recommend recourse if you are interested.

  20. Dr DeRidder said,

    July 8, 2013 at 9:39 am

    But, most reformers would acknowledge that John Calvin in his Institutes, Geneva Catechism, as well as, multiple other writings expressed a more “flexible” view of the Sabbath. Which derived from his view that Christ was the Lord of the Sabbath and “completed” the 4th C. thus all days are equal for sabboth worship so long as it is done in a decent and orderly fashion.

  21. Tracey said,

    July 31, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    Just a loving thought here, we are all responsible before God to seek Him and ask Him to remove from us any deception that we may have been brought up to believe. The thing about deception is, nobody knows they are in it, unless they are willing to call out to God and ask Him to remove it from them. If you really have faith in the true God, you will trust Him with this prayer. Don’t believe any man, pastor, interpretation…go to the author of Life and Truth Himself. Seek Him only.


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